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Comments by LarryLSmith
An aspect of Chinese Chess is that certain pieces are primarily defensive(Elephants and Ministers). Also that the both players need to maintain offensive pieces to prosecute the game. These values can tax a simple depth-search program. Demanding at least a few extra computational considerations.
Here's something interesting: http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=222671&title=games-the-annihilator
The link should read: http://www.chessvariants.org/membergraphics/MZcentaurroyalan/CentaurRoyal.zip
It is easy enough to simply say that a game is somehow 'damaged' or 'incorrect'. It is another to specifically demonstrate these claims. So far, those who have posted negative comments about this variant have done so without specific examples to demonstrate their positions. And to apparently done so to merely draw attention to their personal variants is very uncool. To exactly extrapolate XiangQi to the hexagonal field may prove virtually impossible. For various reasons which have been stated further down the thread. The best a developer can hope is a hexagonal game which has the 'flavor' of XiangQi. And, yes, there are a large number of variants which have attempted to do this. So to expect any hexagonal game of XiangQi to exactly match each and every dynamic of the square field is just silly thinking. Or is it simply forcing a personal viewpoint as an implied standard? I look forward to anyone who can demonstrate that this particular game is 'flawed'. This should be done with a specific in-game demonstration. To further justify there should be an example of how the player reached, or forced, this supposed 'bad' position.
Checkers might be considered trivial, while Go is quite complex. Though a simple reference link would suffice.
GD, check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_(game)#Computers_and_Go Also check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_and_mathematics and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Go Go should really have a page here at TCVP. Particularly since there are several variants which are based upon this game and its equipment.
Just a little history of planar pieces. In 1997, D.E. Matson simply named the 3D planar pieces; 3D Rook(orthogonal), 3D Bishop(diagonal) and 3D Queen(orthogonal/diagonal). In 2004, Prince was published at TCVP. And in 2004, LiQi was published at the Zillions-of-Games site.
Yeah, GD, anonymous postings can be taken with a grain of salt. Though I believe the moderators can verify the ISP source of such, and thus determine if someone is ghosting. But this still doesn't justify your multi-voting. Which is an obvious rating manipulation.
GD, this is a 'strong' game. There is no claim that it is the 'strongest'. Please refrain from multi-voting. This drives down the average rating on a page. Or is this your intent?
The BenYe(running leaf) is definitely stronger than the Queen. And the JiaoYe(angled leaf') is stronger than the Bishop. And the FeiYe(flying leaf) is stronger than the Rook. And these strengths are present from the opening to the endgame. The TianWang(heavenly king) is stronger than the King. But since it must always maintain a defender, it loses strength as the game progresses. And yes, it is based upon the Emperor piece from several historical Shogi variants and I took creative license in its re-naming so that it fit the overall theme of the game. And the RuoShi(young lion) is permitted up to two captures during its move. The 'igui' capture was denied to force the player to reposition this piece when used, offering the opponent potentially new lines of attack through the player's defenses. Now before anyone points out that the title and the names of pieces are Chinese, allow me to say that I attempted to blend aspects of the three dominant wargames of the World. Mad Queen, Shogi and XiangQi. Thus the number of pieces being from the European game, several piece types having similarity to the Japanese games and the overall appearance very much like the Chinese game. The use of points, rather than cells, actually aids in the visualization of the planar movements. As to this game being referred to as 'artwork', I gladly embrace this attempted disparagement. I believe the game is quite beautiful, both in appearance and play. But that is just my egocentric two-cents-worth. ;-)
The planar pieces in this variant are not restricted to any specific set of values for their axes. Though developers might consider such for their games. Hey, just have fun. And since all the positions within the planar move are considered, they are strictly NOT multi-path. They do not have optional paths within the area of a specific move. But if one wants to be fussy about planar categorization, they could be termed omni-path. But why not simply refer to them as planar?
Thanks for the heads-up. Just a small error while half-asleep. ;-) I've made the correction to the previous post to avoid confusion. I had first started with the f5 position, then changed it to d7 to best demonstrate the diagonal planar move. Made the changes to the potential positions within the pattern but missed the initial statement.
Planar moves are translations from one corner position of a plane to its opposite corner position. The plane is defined by two distinct axes. There must be no other pieces located on positions within this plane. For example, an orthogonal planar move from b3 to d7 could be performed if b4, b5, b6, b7, c3, c4, c5, c6, c7, d3, d4, d5 and d6 are vacant. 8 [ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ] 7 [ ][-][-][x][ ][ ][ ][ ] 6 [ ][-][-][-][ ][ ][ ][ ] 5 [ ][-][-][-][ ][ ][ ][ ] 4 [ ][-][-][-][ ][ ][ ][ ] 3 [ ][o][-][-][ ][ ][ ][ ] 2 [ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ] 1 [ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ] a b c d e f g h This a translation within a 3x5 plane. And, of course, these planes can be of various dimensions. The diagonal planar move can prove a little difficult for the new player to visualize. The same translation from b3 to d7 could be accomplished if a4, b5, c4, c6, d5 and e6 are vacant. A 2x4 plane. Note that b4, c5 and d6 are NOT part of this diagonal pattern. 8 [ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ] 7 [ ][ ][ ][x][ ][ ][ ][ ] 6 [ ][ ][-][ ][-][ ][ ][ ] 5 [ ][-][ ][-][ ][ ][ ][ ] 4 [-][ ][-][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ] 3 [ ][o][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ] 2 [ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ] 1 [ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ] a b c d e f g h The simple linear slide can be considered a planar move with one axis being only one position wide. And planar pieces can also perform this form of movement. Okay, that is the short version. I hope that it was illuminating. I've included an empty field variant with the Zillions implementation(for those who have the program) so that a player can check out the dynamics of this form of play.
The Mad Queen variant is not really 'wrong' or 'damaged'. It is just simply becoming 'simplified' in the collective consciousness. Eventually(not tomorrow), it will be superseded by another variant(just as it superseded previous variants during its time). What that one will be is totally conjecture at this point in time. But allow me to conjecture(or predict). The 'next chess' could be 3D. This is simply a logical extension of the wargame. Will it be a 3D extrapolation of the Mad Queen variant? Or some other creature entire. Let the argument continue(hopefully rational). Maybe we'll dig this gem from our brains one day. ;-)
This is a beta version Zillions implementation of Rebel Fury. I have play-tested for the last week, but would be happy if someone else took a hard look. If an error is found, please create a ZSG file and send me a copy. Along with a short description of the problem. For a challenging game, I suggest that the Zillions engine be run at least at Strength 6, mid-range Variety and Infinite Time. This can take a lot of time to receive a response(pratically all day), but your patience will be rewarded. Thanks in advance.
I should have said that the Immobilizer of Ultima might be considered a 'near-sighted' Gorgon. :)
Okay, Royal Fury resembles Ultima. |-] Though did either game really have contact with the other? Chess variants, at that time, were not so widely published. Though many Chess Clubs had either newsletters, or collections, which featured many variants. The Mimotaur of Royal Fury and the Chameleon of Ultima seem to be the only piece in common. Though the Immobilizer of Ultima might be considered a short-range Gorgon.
I believe that Royal Fury pre-dates Ultima. So might it best be said that Ultima resembles Royal Fury? ;-)
In the pursuit of mathematical definitions for games and their pieces, one of the basic qualities, often over-looked, is fun. Primarily because it is impossible to fully quantify, but also it is very subjective. Allow me to point out a game which I find quite enjoyable. This is V. R. Parton's Royal Fury. One which he claimed as a futuristic form of Chess. It contains many pieces of power, both strong and strange. Therefore it is un-forgiving in its play. One mistake can lead to disaster. I had written a Zillions implementation, primarily for my personal use(since it can be difficult to find human opponents who were willing to risk such a game), to test out the potential of this game. And discovered its high level of aggravation(a quality which I thoroughly enjoy). Also, that Zillions was really not up to the task of prosecuting a good form of play with this game. I even tried various alternate set-up patterns to see if there was an optimum. And discovered that Parton's was most probably the best(at least in comparison to those I had attempted). So I now accept its master's wishes. Like Nemoroth, Royal Fury has pieces which affect and are affected by other pieces. This can be a source of great frustration for many new players. Yet I find this quality of frustration(primarily within myself) again enjoyable. I point all this out to demonstrate an aspect in the nature of fun. Not as an absolute value but simply as a subjective facet. Other might not enjoy such games, nor should they be forced to play such(this would be seriously contrary to the nature of fun). But there are many in this world, whose population is numbered in billions, who might enjoy an occasional game of Royal Fury.
Yeah, I remember an on-line argument between some individuals about the 'diagonal' descriptive in hexagonal games. One insisted that it was improper because not only did the target cell have a tenuous connection to the starting cell but that it involved the shift of three axes on the field(rather than two) and thus the term 'diagonal' was insufficient. Another even argued that there were no 'diagonal' moves on the hexagonal field, merely leaps to orthogonally-connected cells. There was much venom, and an excessive use of mathematics. In the end, common use may have won. Few(and there are still some) will now argue about the term 'diagonal' in the description of this form of translation on the hexagonal field. Perception is probably the greatest factor in game descriptions. How does a designer relate their concepts to the potential player in such a way that they can easily visualize them? Building upon common ground is probably a sound approach. Verbal logic, with minimal use of mathematical formulae(which some players may have a dis-advantage), is a positive. Consistency, at least within a given ruleset, is also a necessity.
One of the humorous Chess articles I have read was about the different ways that the Knight's move was described over the centuries. Sorry, I do not absolutely recall the book that it was in(I believe that it was in Mensa's book on Chess). It gave a large variety of examples, each more convoluted the next. All took a bit of careful consideration(or at least diagrams) to work out their logic. Some just made the reader go sparrow. I bring this up as an example, so that hopefully developers will avoid re-hashing particular descriptives. Thus continuing the confusion of particular pieces. BTW, my description of a Knight move is a translation to the opposite corner cell of a 2x3 area. Is it better than others? Maybe not. But I really like it. ;-)
I gladly apologize to any who have found my comments offensive, or even inappropriate. I had hoped that by approaching the subject of 'the piece which shall not be named'(humor) from both a serious and a humorous angle that conversation would evolve rather than continue along the redundant path it had taken. Obviously I was being pollyanna-ish. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BTW, the term 'the piece which shall not be named' refers only to the Falc--- Oh God! I gone blind!
Those planar pieces which are not restricted by occupancy of their attack plane might actually be classified as 'hook-movers'. The restriction of planar pieces might seem a little draconian, but only during the early portion of the game. As the field clears, these pieces begin to rise exponentially in threat. A further restriction was developed because of the dynamics of the diagonal(and triagonal) planar piece. This was that all the cells within the planar move must exist on the field. Though developers and players are not strictly bond by this rule. For a nice(or so I think) 2D game which demonstrates planar moves, try LiQi. It utilizes the same equipment as the Mad Queen(but it does not restrict the diagonal planar piece). There's also a Zillions implementation.
That's one of the primary hurdles in developing an algorithm, foreknowledge of the dynamics of the game. A generic algorithm could prove impossible to apply to all games. Unless such was written so that sub-functions could be added and manipulated. These sub-functions could either increase the amount of data that the algorithm considers, or even truncate it. The programming language for such sub-functions would need to be extremely flexible. Right now I am studying Axiomatic to determine its strength and how(or if) it can be used in creating strong adjustable algorithms.
Here's an idea. How's bout applying Shogi drops? Such would count as a move during the turn, and the introduced pieces would be placed in any vacant cell adjacent the activating Chief.
Games with multiple moves per turn will seriously bog down most search algorithms. The increased potential of field positions does tend to exponentiate. What can 'assist' these plodders is some form of 'intuitive' step in the depth search? Intuition being the ability to reach conclusions with incomplete information. [Somebody has probably already done all the following, but I merely give them as an example.] Humans(most anyway) look beyond their current move toward a position which often there may not be a clear path. Sometimes this is simply a desire which motivates the play and may actually never be achieved. A programmer might accumulate enough data to create a database of 'favored' field positions which the 'AI' could then use to influence its overall play. Another 'intuitive' leap could be the assumption that a series of turns would involve a specific number of pieces. Focusing the search on a specific series of moves and exchanges involving only these pieces. As the ply depth increase, those pieces of this group which were removed from play would not be replace by others which were earlier discarded(new pieces introduced during the search, whether by promotion or changing sides, might be considered part of this evaluated group). Of course, these groups could not simply be made up of the 'best' pieces on the field. There are many possibilities to these 'intuitive' leaps. Games can be evaluated in a variety of ways. A programmer needs to think beyond the linear progression of turns. Maybe a search engine which works backward('seeing' a future position and attempting to un-create it to the current position).
Thanks for the heads-up on the info, Omar. Kinda thought the piece values would be based upon not only their rank(power hierarchy) but also upon their position in relation to the opposing pieces. For example, the Elephant would be a very powerful piece but the opposing Elephant could lower that value simply by being within its area of movement(and this effect could be mutual). Blocking an equal, or even lower, ranked piece could be considered an asset to its value. Particularly when it relates to Rabbits. Keeping the opposing Rabbits as far from their last rank could be considered a positive field position. So, not only the value of the Rabbit could be based upon its particular position on the field but the values of all the player's Rabbits could be used to calculate an effective field position. And Freezing would also be a value. The piece which is 'frozen', and the pieces which is doing the 'freezing', could have their overall value(or simply a sub-value) modified by this condition. This could also be further modified by the positions of other pieces in relation to these. I've already coded a ZRF so that the engine 'randomly' initiates a set-up pattern for both sides. This allows me to test out a large number of potential set-up patterns. Of course, the current code is rather dim, being able to only look-ahead a few full turns. But I can manually create possible positions on the field and see how they will play out(if I have a lot of patience). A simple translation of this code into Axiom will be the first step of the project.
I was thinking of trying out the Axiomatic Development Kit with one of my old Zillions implementation. Now, I've decided to apply it to this game. Not saying that the engine add-on will improve the computer play enough to win the contest. But it will be a challenge to push the code to its limit. Even after simply coding the rules into the application, I plan to run many computerVScomputer games to tweak its dynamics. For example: Are there any optimal set-up patterns which the computer might select from? Does having certain pieces on certain positions improve the play of the program? And, exactly what are the values of the pieces in this game and how would they be expressed? This will be My Summer Project. Looking forward to the vid-strain and the coffee jitters. ;-)
You might check out Chapter 2 of Analysis and Implementation of the Game Arimaa by Christ-Jan Cox (Universiteit Maastricht, Institute for Knowledge and Agent Technology). The paper is available at the site.
I reviewed this game for Abstract Games Magazine, and helped optimize the Zillions implementation. [I recently downloaded the implementation from the game's site and it throws an error message about being unable to render 'board.bmp'(not my creation ;-)). I simply screen-captured the image in Windows Picture and Fax Viewer and replaced the original bitmap. I'm sending this correction now.] I love this game. It's simple and complex. It does resist computer quantification. In fact, its developer has a challenge, which includes a financial reward, to any programmer who can code a program that will play this game well enough to defeat three human opponents(see site for details). There are also several academic papers at the site about Arimaa and computer programming. This should give the interested a serious heads-up about the task. I'm sure that it will eventually be quantified. It will be interesting if it occurs before 2020.
I used 'active' Pawns on both levels. Of course, this did get a little tedious during opening development. But here's an idea(not mine). Dan Beyer created an interesting 3D Pawn which extended through the levels of the field, occupying the cells above and below it. The same might be done on this field. The two Pawns which occupy the same positions on each level would move as a unit to the same destination cell of each level. But would be captured as individuals. This would mean that as a unit they would simply move as Mad Queen Pawns, but when one was captured the other is now free to exercise its 3D pattern in this game. When capturing as a unit, only one of these two moving Pawns need take an opponent. Needless to say that if a friendly piece occupies the similar target cell of the other level such a capture would not be permitted. This would speed up the opening while allowing a sufficient 'barricade' against the advancing opponent. And if the two Pawns were able to maintain their unit upon promotion, the player could gain two seperate power pieces. Thus assuring the players of necessary material in the endgame. Of course, if a single Pawn moves to a similar cell on one level as another friendly Pawn on the other they would then be considered a unit and be moved as such from that point. Just a thought.
Okay, I've run a few games. Just a few knee-jerk reactions. ;-) I like the zig-zag moves. They can just be a little tough to visualize while playing. At this point I do not know how to make this easier. Familiarity should solve it. I'm not happy with the fact that power pieces(in the standard array) are able to threaten several Pawns initially. This can restrict the opening potential, which should be as high as possible to assure a large variety of games. I actually coded a variant with an additional row of (active)Pawns on second field, and moved Black's power pieces to the second field. As stated in the rules, these extra Pawns block the initial assault by their own power pieces, forcing the player to develop to bring most into play. These extra (active)Pawns can get a little crowded at first but they do offer a high potential of promotion which will increase the opportunity for checkmating the opponent. And they can be effective during play by restricting those zig-zag moves.
Vous jouez deux jeux, le vôtre et votre adversaire.
I actually downloaded this implementation this morning. Just haven't gotten around to trying it out. It appears to be an interesting 3D Chess variant. I look forward to playing the game.
Throughout history there have been occasions where persons have purged society's database. Libraries burned, authors executed, inventions destroyed. All for the reason of simplifying their existence and controlling the common man. Did this improve mankind's state? Or did this actually cripple mankind's intellectual evolution? The latter was most likely the case. Chess has evolved from simplicity to it current complexity. The thinking person would realize that it will continue to evolve in complexity rather than slide back into simplicity. If only to continue to challenge the mind. Whereas, before the last of half of the twentieth century, most people had little contact with others outside their direct environment. Their exposure to ideas outside that environment was rare or often slow to arrive. Now, with the Net, all those developing concepts which might have gone un-noticed can be presented to an enormous audience. To evaluate and/or play. No one should be forced to appreciate any particular form of game. This would be self-defeating of the concept of play. Which is a part of the very nature of humans. Likewise, those who desire to either promote a particular form of play or do not appreciate other forms should respect their fellow players. If they desire to apply particular parameters to the development of their particular games, they are well within their rights. But to demand such compliance from others is only a high state of hubris. Consider a mind which has existed within a 'box', surrounding by what it knows within this domain. If it is allowed to peek outside and view the infinity of chaotic potential, it may recoil in fear rather than amazement(or amusement). Unable to accept or comprehend. Such a mind should not be harassed to accept such a challenge. Merely pitied.
Thanks for the kudos.[blush] I will admit that Nemoroth had the strongest influence on this variant. Its interlocking conditions inspired me. But rather than make them 'painful' to consider, I opted for a more 'logical' approach to this interactivity. Not saying that I succeeded, just a goal.
Allow me to list and explain those adjustments which were made with this update. Playtesting determined that the introduction of five pieces during the production phase was rather excessive and could place the second player in a negative position often. Thus the potential introductions were reduce to two. And these introductions were predicated on the presence of a Nurse for each. This now turned each Nurse into a highly desirable target. The loss of each Nurse would reduce or eliminate the player's production phase. The rule that permitted two Nurses to be introduced together was eliminated to strengthen this aspect of the game. The Soldier is now required to be introduced adjacent a friendly piece. This reduced the number of potential introductions, giving the opposing player a break there. This also expanded the power of the Drone. Besides assisting the Nurse in moving some of the pieces around the field and assisting the Soldiers in their attack lines, the Drone now can be used to claim distant positions. This rule also allows for patterns and positions on the field which each player will vie over. The Highborn was only slightly adjusted. The previous form of promotion was merely a change of state but not position. In the interest of keeping the endgame interesting, the Highborn is now allowed to move and immediately promote on its destination cell. Now the Queen is no longer the prime determination of the production phase, it was no longer beneficial to have more than one. So, simply maintaining a Queen on the field became a goal in the game. This eliminated the large potential of attrition-decided games(sometimes very long indeed). One of my personal parameters applied during this 'adjustment phase' was that, as much as possible, the bare bones of this game would remain untouched. For instance, the field, the initial number of pieces and their basic movements. Keeping these changes to those rules which affect the interaction between friendly pieces. And since most of the changes were needed to reduce certain aspects of the interaction of hostile pieces, not adjusting either the simple move or capture ability of the piece proved challenging. At this point I am quite happy with the game. And it appears to play quite nicely. But, fair warning, playtesting continues. Without a large volume of played games, a designer cannot say that a game is completely error-free.
Once again I've updated the rules for this game. Let me first apologize to those who are adverse to unfinished games being published at this site. I primarily presented this form of play as an example of a game which would be difficult to get a computer program to play well. Obviously, these rule changes have reduced that difficulty. Again let me thank Joe Joyce for the discussions which resulted in the modification of this game.
The game can definitely let a player recover from an error. Maintaining the exchange ratio appears to be necessary. I anticipate that the current game I'm playing will exceed 70 turns. Looking at the potential of a hundred-turn game will often scare the impatient. ;-) Has anyone determined the various combinations of pieces needed in the endgame? I like the pattern that a Minister and Dabbaba take when cornering the opposing King.
I am currently playing a round of this game with Joe at the Game Courier. And I really like it. In its simplicity, it has expanded the strategy needed to prosecute a decent game. A player cannot rely on a single line of assault to accomplish the mate, they will need to think in terms of a series of battles to reduce and penetrate the opponent's ranks. Without sliders, the players need to closely engage one another. This can create several areas of serious contention on the field. And each might equally lead to success, so that the opponent risks catastrophe if each are not taken seriously(particularly in the opening). Right now, Joe and I(or at least I am) are testing to determine the effectiveness of Pawn strutures against this large variety of leaping piece. So far, they seem to hold up well. Though the other pieces can quickly bypass them. In itself this is not a bad thing since the opponent can simple maintain a strong defense, and not readily abandon their Pawns. Those players who are familiar with the Mad Queen variant will find much that is familiar. They will not find this game difficult to learn, though application of the Mad Queen's common strategy may prove disastrous.
One way to influence a simple look-ahead is to establish goals within the game. For example(just spit-balling here), the creation of a particular Pawn structure. The engine would modify its evaluation of the play to include achieving this particular condition. Each of these 'goals' might be weighted for both priority and field condition. The engine can be easily 'tricked' by having the positive or negative conditions of these 'goals' affect its evaluation of each plys. The opposing player's achievement of these same goals can also influence the evaluation. There could even be the field position whereby the conditions and/or priority of these goals may change.
Very interesting comments about chess(or simply boardgame) programs. Creating characteristic plays which could translate into any ruleset will definitely be challanging. Take for instance the use of 'pawn' structure. What parameters might be considered within a characteristic play? Also there might be the consideration of territories and patterns of pieces as characteristic play.
I have Kanji fonts for my browser and these characters do not show.
I have updated the rules, limiting the number of Workers on the field for each player to eight. With a little play-testing and a lot of discussion with Joe Joyce, it was determined that unlimited Workers always allowed the first player a significant opening advantage. This restriction actually plays rather nice. With the limitation on Workers follows a limitation of potential introductions, so each player must consider these careful. And this also brings the game closer to being quantified. ;)
Summoning allows the movement of pieces between the 9x9 and 8x8 fields. Notice neither Æther nor Codex are eligible to change fields. The player's Æther would only negate the opposing Elements.
John, Exactly what do you not understand? It would be helpful if you provide some form of analysis(comparitive or otherwise) to justify your position. Please point out these 'complexities'. I will freely admit that this game like Rithmomachia(see Boolean Rithmomachia for an update to this medieval game of numbers) can take more thought processes than the Mad Queen variant. -Larry
I worked up a Zillions implementation of Ecila several years ago. But unfortunately the graphics were rather poor, so I abandoned it. I've still got the code somewhere. I'll probably dig it out and try again.
You can find the rules for Sphinx Chess at this site on the V.R. Parton page. It is in the paper entitled 'Chessical Cubism or Chess in Space'. It is headed as 'Sphinxian: Chess'.
I've updated this page with new graphics. Also, the Zillions implementation.
You might say that the game itself is my perspective. You yourself are presenting another. Prespectives are neither good nor bad, simply subjective. And people justify their perspective with all kinds of data. But it often boils down to personal preferences. The best way to prove an 'error' is to demonstrate how, from the start of this game, one player might exploit some peculiarity to their advantage each and every time against their opponent. For example, if the Red player always won following a particular form of opening development. Else, any peculiarity that a game has is simply that. Peculiarity. Not an error. I look forward to any sample games which you accumulate.
Fergus, It's still a matter of perspective. I will not be making any adjustments to this game. I will not be adding any pieces, or making any new rules. I'm sorry that you do not like this game, but that's your prerogative.
A simple form of Shogi/XiangQi hybrid would be to have drops in a XiangQi game. But this does not answer the field size.
Are you claiming that this particular form of endgame position is impossible in XiangQi? I think that I have figured out what the problem is. It is a matter of perspective. You simply 'expect' this game to play exactly like XiangQi. Just take a deep breath, relax and let it go. ;-) (You might have captured Red's Horse at f4 on turn 3, sacrificing your Horse and eventually saving that Chariot on turn 5. An equal exchange of material, rather than what did occur which placed you in a negative position in relation to your opponent.)
Couldn't locate the game. I assume that you mean at Game Courier on this site.
Fergus, Yep, hexagonal fields are different. The Mandarin, and Elephant, are able to defend one another from the start(unlike the square game). And the Horse and Cannon are able to initial move into the 'palace', thus potentially covering any loss of defense on the part of Mandarins and Elephants. But to state that defense has been 'compromised', you may need to demonstrate how a player can use this to their advantage. Else, the statement might best read as defense is 'different'.
I believe that it was a reference to an error in the Index Information for this game. Probably should have been stated a little clearer. I've made the correction.
Check out the Zillions implementation if you need further explanation of the piece movements. Or check out the game that Joe Joyce and I are playing on Game Courier at this site. This varaint has extremely little to do with Go or Reversi. It has more in common with the larger Shogi varaints.
The Kanji used in the Zillions implementation are my development. They are a blocky stylized form, rather then the brush-stroke form. These that are currently on this page, I cannot remember where I got them. Though I was not happy with them(there were several different styles) and changed the ones at my personal webpage. (Also added another playing piece) Unfortunately, the update was not reflected here, but the Zillions implementation contains them. I regret that I am unable to create other Kanji in block form. With so many possible characters, it could take my entire life(what's left of it, anyway) to accomplish this.
The power of this Panthan was needed to counter the Flier on this field. I've posted a Zillions implementation of this game. It should be up sometime soon.
If the Maharaja had a row of Shogi Pawns, might this balance the game? Just a thought.
A restriction of one Pawn to a file, even when moving ringwise, might prove interesting. The Pawns would develop as in the original game, but after one is captured its neighbors would be able to shift to its file. And with their ringwise move, the Pawns now are able to defend one another. So a form of Pawn structure might be developed. This is probably essential with the increased power of the other pieces in this game.
Since it is possible with the ringwise move of the Pawn for more than one to end up in a 'file', the standard Shogi rule of only one Pawn to a file might not be applicable. Maybe a restriction of nine Pawns on the field?
I had considered a hexagonal Jetan. The Flier would have a footprint that spanned a six-cell-sided hexagonal area. Thus the field might need to be twelve-cell-sided to accommodate this piece. If you maintained the original number of pieces(with only an extra Padwar and Flier to cover the extra diagonal pattern of the hexagonal field), this would leave a very large open area on this field. The opening portion of the game could be tedious.
But you might use eight-sided dice with a 10x10 field. Else you'd need to start the count one rank/file inward.
That brings up the next question. Exactly what is the win condition for this game? The assumption being King capture.
Shouldn't the die be an eight-sided one? You can get these from a D&D supplier.
While re-visiting the comments for this game, I realized that I had not given it a rating. So now I correct that oversight. I've finally accepted that this game will be extremely difficult to code. So for the sake of my own sanity I have given up such an attempt. But it has been fun trying. Like hitting myself with a hammer. :) This is not to say that it will not eventually be coded. I just realize that it will probably need its own dedicated program to accomplish this. And such a project will be merely a labor of love(or obsession) because there will probably never be sufficient monetary reward to cover this effort. If anyone decides to make such an attempt, they have my sympathy. ;-)
For those who are interested, this is a record of the Game Courier game between John Smith and myself: Red(J. Smith) Black(L. Smith) 1. Ca(b2)-e2 S-e7 2. S-e5 H(h8)-e9 3. S-e6 SxS 4. Ca-h6 S-i5 5. S-g4 S-a5 6. S-g5 CaxS 7. E(g1)-e5 Ca-i6 8. CaxH HxCa 9. CaxS+ H-d6 10. S-i3 S-g6 11. H-g4 CaxCa+ 12. M(f1)-e3 HxS 13. HxS ExH 14. S-i4 H-f3+ 15. G-f1 CaxCh 16. Ch-i3 Ch-b4 17. ChxH ChxCh+ 18. G-e2 Ch-g2+ 19. G-f1 S-c6 20. Resigns By initially concentrating on a defensive game, I was able to gain material advantage. John made the error of over-valuing the opening effectiveness of the Cannon on this hexagonal field and lost both early in the game. Once this occurred, I was able to quickly press an assault on his General, taking out both of his Chariots in the bargain. If he had not resigned I would have easily mated his General.
Oops, my bad. Mis-read the stalemate condition. ;-)
But you might think to add the 'bare King' loss condition. Just a thought.
But you might think to add the 'bare King' loss condition. Just a thought.
Have you considered that with this particular field's shape that the Soldiers may be forced into positions of ineffectiveness. The back rank of this field radiates away from the 'palace', allowing the potential of the Soldiers moving beyond the 'palace' and unable to return. Of course, this is only a small 'problem'. This could be corrected by moving the rank forward, either level or higher than the 'palace'. But then you risk bringing the Chariots into a position where they will have quick access to the field. But this could be handled by placing them in a position where there would need to be the development of at least one or two pieces before they could be brought out. Oh, wait, that's what I did in Xiang Hex. By your own admission, you have not thoroughly play-tested this game. So any claims of superiority are spurious. May I suggest that next time you wish to brag about your creation that you resist the urge to denigrate someone else's.
One reason for increasing the hexagonal field size by 50% is to increase the potential of the diagonal sliders. But XiangQi only has two particular diagonal movers, and they are restricted to one side of the field, and one type to a specific area. Thus increasing the size of the field does not actually gain any significant advantage for these pieces. It could be argued that the Horse uses a diagonal in its move. But this is simple a step. Increasing the size of the field will actually reduce its effectiveness. So the only reason to do so would be to slow its opening advance across the field. But looking at your attempt at a hexagonal XiangQi, I can see several un-necessary elements. That is the right and left section which make up the star pattern of the field. This would eliminate the extra Soldiers. Also the right and left cells from the 'Palace' could be eliminated. The game could actually work well without them, but this would destroy your overall theme.
The overall space in Xiang Hex is smaller. So, having a smaller Palace is in itself not a 'problem'. I believe that you are basing your judgement, not on an objective evaluation of the game, but on a mere subjective view. The dynamics of the hexagonal field are very different from the square field. To expect the same results is not realistic. The only way there could be a problem would be that it results in some form of triviality or weakness that allows one opponent to exploit to advantage. If both players have the same restriction it is merely a particularity of the game, not a problem. The honest thing you could say is that this particular game allows the players more room. In fact, more than the XiangQi field. It does not address any particular 'problem' with another game.
Exactly what is 'the Palace problem' of Xiang Hex? Just curious.
I have uploaded a new implementation of Iss Jetan. Found an error with the Thoat being allowed to take a Chief. Corrected. Also added several variants using the exposure rule discussed at the Yahoo! Jetan Group. In effect, if the Chief becomes directly orthogonal or diagonal to an open opposing Princess it can take it. This is similar to the General exposure rule in XiangQi, and increases the opportunity of Chief take Princess wins.
The pursuit of the 'best' or 'perfect' game of Chess is a lofty goal. But I fear that it may be impossible to attain. First, there are just too many variables. The potential dynamics of this wargame has the possibility of reaching infinity. Consider just the wide variety of pieces, then add the potential playing field and finally all the possible in-game conditions. I think you will begin to visualize the enormity of the challenge. Of course, there are break-over points. Such as, a game which is too large and complicated for current intellects to grasp. But that does not take into account the evolution of the human mind. So, who knows, an extremely large and complicated game at this point might in time find a receptive audience in the future. ;-) And there is no way to truly judge a game except through play. A critic can use mathematical evaluation in an attempt to quantify the game, but this leaves out various aspects which resist such. For example, fun. A game can be considered mathematically 'perfect' but contain little or no enjoyment. One game which I truly enjoy is Nemoroth. Is this game mathematically 'perfect'? The conditionals are so convoluted that most players easily make errors while playing. But that is its appeal, the ability to master this game is a challenge in itself. The 'fun' of this game is not graded toward 'contentment' but 'aggravation'. The Marquis de Sade would have loved this game. ;-) Nemoroth is a game which I always recommend to someone new to Chess variants. Since it can utilize the pieces from a Mad Queen set(with a few extra tokens), it is easy to try out. And it quickly unclogs the cobwebs from their minds. The 'best' that any developer can hope for is to create an enjoyable game. And this can be accomplished in various ways.
I too use Zillions to 'test' some games. Though it can be rather limited as an opponent. But I've recently dedicated some thought to creating a Chess Variant System which could be used by players to compose real-world games. I initially intended to apply this system to 3D Chess, but it just as easily could be used for 2D games. It will consists of various elements which can be assembled to whatever game the players intend. And these elements can be obtained in whatever quantities which the players desire. I've already announced this system's development at the ThreeDChessFederation site. I've given it a release date of Jan 2010. But I hope to have it constructed well before then. I do not really expect a lot of requests for this system. So I'm primarily creating it for my own use. But I do intend to offer it. And at reasonable prices.
Allow me to confess my sins. ;-) I approach Chess from the background of abstract game design. I look upon it simply as a form of wargame. Over the centuries it has gravitated toward particular elements which many confuse as absolute parameters for this potential wargame. But are there limitations, or are they only what we impose ourselves? Many of my creations have a theme. This is primarily people are attracted to games which exhibit an atmosphere of fantasy. It appeals to their imagination. Of course, there are those which are merely humorous. These are just for fun. Not meant to be taken seriously. But they often do show some signs of tactical and strategic play. I also like the games of Asia. This being possibly the birthplace of Chess, and it is interesting to see their approach to the wargame. Thus several of my creations have had an oriental flavor, though a few could just as easily been rendered in the western mode. But that goes back to theme. I like interesting playing pieces, but I don't start with simply the creation of such and attempt to make it fit a game. I start with the game as a concept, and work the various elements until they 'fit'. Sometimes this results in new pieces, and sometimes even different conditions of play. I often like to ask the question, 'What is Chess?' And I can receive just as many answers as there are people. Though, unfortunately, many westerners have been heavily indoctrinated by the Mad Queen variant believing it represents the entire world of Chess. But permit me to answer that question. 'What is Chess?' Simple, 'Chess is War.' And war can take many forms. Thus the wargame of Chess can have many forms. Particularly if we let it.
While coding a Zillions implementation for this game, I discovered an interesting dynamic. I tried an alternate initial setup with the pieces. Having the Chief and Princess swap positions with their Fliers. Basicly placing both players' Chief and Princess initially on the same pattern. And this was the optimal pattern for this field, containing sixteen cells. This actually played very well, with the Chiefs threatening the Princess during the opening play. But of course, the Princess need not remain on this pattern. And I noticed that the Fliers survived longer in the average game. But some of the 'purists' might find this setup offensive. I merely offer it as a potential. I will be posting the Zillions implementation when I finished filling out all the various Descriptions and such. It will inclued a variant with the alternate setup for players to test out. I would enjoy any constructive feedback from those who carefully evaluate this possible variant.
Fergus, have you tried the Axiom Development Kit created by Greg Schmidt for Zillions? He was able to get my game Thrall to play much better with this game-playing plug-in engine. I've decided that rather than 'tweaking' the common ZRF, that I might utilize this tool to improve the play of a few games. Some day, I might find the time to give it go. But I find myself distracted by other things at the moment. If you try it out, let me know how it performs.
:-) I was speaking of the politically-correct crowd. But feel free to take offense. ;-) But it is a shame that a bunch of evil sons-o-b*****s turned what was once a symbol of 'well-being' into one that is recognized(mostly by Western people) for genocidal insanity. But I personally would not utilize this particular symbol in anything that I created, except as a mark for the evil side(and even then I would think twice). So maybe there are just some symbols which evoke such a negative reaction that they are better left alone. (I'm starting to sound like H.P.Lovecraft here)
It would not be a fair test of your programs. To truly test them, you might challenge a ranking master. Post your challenge to a few Asian sites. And you might thoroughly read my posting. I did not say 'all programs'. I said 'many programs'. Yours may be an exception. I look forward to the results of your tests. There was one program around 2006 that did very well against a human in a competition. Was this a dedicated system, or an addon software for the personal computer? Have you heard of any other since? I am rather partial to the graphics in my implementation. Some western players of Asian games have a prejudice of the Kanji symbols. This is primarily because of unfamiliarity. It is quite easy to become familiar with them, if a little effort is applied. Here's a tip on how to beat many XiangQi programs. Play defensively. Let the computer opponent come to you. Sacrifice Elephants or Mandarins to gain material advantage. When the computer opponent has commited sufficient material to this bloodbath, strike.
Janggi, or Korean Chess, could be applied to this playing field. Though the Elephants would never be able to fully express their potential moves within this field. But that is not a big negative in itself. Give me time to work up a Zillions implementation of this game to see how it plays. BTW, Zillions does not really play XiangQi well, like many other computer programs of the game. They tend to be too aggressive and cannot see the benefit of sacrifice for position. Or even the necessary material to affect a good endgame. Unless they are specificly programmed to keep track of particular pieces, they will often place themselves in the position of having no pieces which can cross the 'river'. As of now, human players rule the game.
You could simply use the original Sanskrit - svastik. It should be enough of a variation in spelling that most pseudo-intellectuals will not recognized it.
Since it is suggested in the rules that forms of wagers are involved in Jetan, I often view the game similar to Poker in that it also has many variations. Also the application of wagers greatly changes the dynamics of the game. That being draws are no longer considered a negative but often a desirable outcome.
For those who don't speak German, here is a translation from the previous anonymous post: 'The discussion over the Etymologie of ' Zickzack' in German is merry. A break makes only a serrating (/\), for a zigzag needs it many breaks (/\/\/\/\/\).' [Babel Fish] Zacken is the verb for Zacke, which means 'jag'. So Zacken means 'jags' or 'to jag'. And 'einen Zacken' means 'jags together(or as one)'. Although zack, Zacke and Zacken appear similar, they do slightly diverge in meaning. So that statement is both incorrect and misleading in its attempt to both confuse and hide its meaning. Another meaning for Zacke is 'tooth'. So that Zacken means 'to tooth' and 'einen Zacken' means 'to tooth together(or as one)'. So Zacke (/\) is not the same as Zacken (/\/\/\/\/\). 'Zack, zack' is the same as saying 'Chop, chop'. Or 'look sharp'. Or 'move, move'. BTW, 'zickig' also can mean touchy or bitchy. ;-)
I've uploaded a black and white graphic of the playing field(see the note just before the Setup section). I sized it to fit on a standard letter page. It will accommodate pieces which are three-quarters of inch in diameter or less(which my set is). But it can be re-sized for larger sets. It will just not fit on a single page. ;-) To keep the printout neat, just laminate it. Many office supply stores offer this service, including the printing of the page. I merely slipped mine into one of those plastic sleeves which can be gotten at your local Wal-mart.
So, in essense, it continues to regard the corners of the cells as points. That takes care of steppers and sliders. Now how about Horses and Knights. I can see the continuation of the points with Horse, does this also apply with the continuation of cells with the Knights? For example, must a Knight be in a cell directly before the 'Magic River' to make the crossing? Or is it permitted to land in the 'Magic River'. Or does it consider the 'Magic River' a null part of its move and is able to penetrate deep it XQ territory. And can the sliders penetrate deeply into territory before making the translation? And is this translation a non-capturing move. Or can it capture?
You still have not demonstrated how a piece moving from a point(XQ-side) across the 'Magic River' arrives at its destination cell or cells(MQ-side).
I too am having difficulty balancing this game. That is, without a bunch of conditionals. And these would need to be logical and intuitive to assist the players during play. But it is an interesting concept. It just needs some work.
The points could be noted as 'a' to 'i' for the file and 1 to 5 for the rank. The cells can be 'a' to 'h' for the file and 6 to 9 for the rank. Thus an orthogonal slide from c5 could be to b6-b9 or c6-c9. And a diagonal slide could be from c5 to a6 or d6-g9. Coming from the other side: an orthogonal slide could be from c6 to c5 or d5. A diagonal slide from c6 could be b5-a4 or e5-i1. So the Rooks and Chariots would have equal expression across the field, The Chariots would be restricted in the opening by the Pawn structure of the Mad Queen side, likewise the Rooks would also be restricted until they have been developed. Those pieces which become immobilized might be allowed their expression from the MQ to the XQ. Only changing state upon actually landing on a point. Though the Cannons and Grasshoppers do present a problem. The Cannon could be restricted to only Grasshopper move when crossing the 'Magic River'. Just a thought.
Why not have the orthogonal transfer from cell to two potential points, and from point to two potential cells. Then the diagonal transfer could be simply from point to cell and vice versa. Develop a notation system and I can better explain this particular form of translation across the 'Magic River'
It IS an interesting concept. But I think I need a more detailed explanation of the position transfer that occurs when crossing the 'Magic River'. Possibly with graphics. ;-) I may work up a Zillions implementation, if the developer is interested. And I can work out all the dynamics.
I am sorry that your submission had to be subjected to this stream of nonsense. I hope that I was not overly verbose in my attempt to correct the misconceptions voiced. This is exactly the behavior that I detest. I would hope that members would show more constraint when reviewing a submission. Rather than responding with a 'knee-jerk' reaction, they should carefully analyze the submission before making a 'snap' judgment. It always surprises me how many negative responses occur within 24 hours of a submission's posting. This obviously reflects little analysis on the part of the commenting member. Maybe there should be a grace period before allowing the posting of comments to a new submission. Giving members time to carefully consider their eventual commentary. I would suggest seven days.
I've tried several times over the year to download the stand-alone program for this game but the link appears to be permanently broken. Does anyone know where to obtain it?
Dutch is actually a Franco derivation of German, and didn't appear until four or five hundred A.D. German is a little bit older. And jigsaw has a whole other etymology. ''vertical reciprocating saw,' 1873, Amer.Eng., from jig with its notion of 'rapid up-and-down motion.' Jigsaw puzzle first recorded 1909; originally one with pieces cut by a jigsaw.' Although 'jig' is of Irish and Scottish origin, it might originate in the French 'gigue' or dance(in a sense, 'to shake a leg'). And 'saw' comes from the German 'Säge'. So they had a term for a repetitive 'zickzack'. ;-) And everyone knows 'The South'. At least those from the United States. But I've found that even people outside the country know the reference.
Well, I apologize for any confusion. But I think you'll find the graphics helpful while playing. I had thought to create my own piece graphics. But my Muse isn't talking to me with concern to this game. After cobbling together the initial Zillions implementation, the images just seemed to fit nicely to the play. But if you are using the implementation, you can swap out the images for your own use. And maybe later on, when my Muse is feeling interested, I might change the look of this game. Maybe something like I used in the alternate images for Ki Shogi.
I choose the particular images for their appearances. Yes, I know that I used the Vao and Pao icons. But these more visually relay their potential movement in this game. And the player needs all the help they can get. I freely admit to taking license in this regard, but I believe that the benefit far outweighs the crime. ;-) And since Elephants are the goal pieces in this game, it really wasn't very good to have more of their images on the field than was necessary. The player didn't need the distractions.
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