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Comments by LarryLSmith
I will admit that this page is very extensive in its exploration of the potential interpretation of the rules of Jetan. It is based upon several decades of play and many arguments with opponents. But all the various rules on this page are based upon the writings of ERB. Although Jean-Louis offers a single interpretation, it is no more 'authentic' than any other combination which might be derived. It is merely a personal preference, like the one which I give at the end of this page.
That inconsistency of the initial board set-up has long been noted at the original webpage from which this page was generated. The 'standard' form is noted as Barsoomian and the other is noted as Manatorian. http://users3.ev1.net/~llsmith/Jetan/setup.htm Most use the Barsoomian form, but there is no restriction for the preference of the Manatorian. This page might need to be updated.
For those who are interested, for in-depth discussions with other fans of ERB's Jetan, you may wish to visited the Yahoo! Jetan Group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jetan/ Be sure to catch up on the previous postings.
If players use the Manatorian set-up, I suggest they try a game with Chained Chiefs. The restricted movement of this piece binds both of them within an identical pattern, and can result in a potential Chief-takes-Chief win.
No one is obligated to use wagers in Jetan. But ERB did specifiy that wagers were a large part of this game. Of course, the dynamics which Mark points out works both ways. And wagering does bring the Chief-draw into value, rather than it being an un-desired outcome. There is also supposed to be ten games played between the opponents. But this does not prevent players from attempting a simple game. Posted at the Yahoo! Jetan Group are a series of games played between Kerry Handscomb and myself using the simple wager system which I propose in this paper. They demonstrate that the game is quite playable in this form, and even enjoyable. We utilized several different interpretation of the pieces, and had little trouble prosecuting a good game with each.
For those who are truly interested, check out James Spratt's Jetan-Sarang. A really cool Jetan variant. It offers a larger playing field and more pieces. He has even sculpted some pieces for it and the 'standard' Jetan set. If you want to buy a set, drop him an e-mail. In fact, his game inspired me to create Warlord Jetan.
Why does each Pawn need to be defended at the initial set-up? This seems to be an arbitrary rule. There are many good Chess games where each and every Pawn is not defended at the start. In fact, these un-defended Pawns can create a nice area of early contention in play. Is there an actual 'flawed' setup, resulting in the loss of the game for one or the other player?
Gothic Chess, being a derivative of Capablanca Chess, has no exclusive claim upon Capablanca Chess. Neither does it have a claim upon Fischer's Random Chess. Thus how does combining these two independent forms, which it has absolutely no claim upon, be actionable on the part of Gothic Chess?
The application of en passant in Alice Chess is really not that confusing. The opposing Pawn must have immediately performed a two-step move to the capturing Pawn's field, resulting in a position orthogonal adjacent. The cell which the capturing Pawn is moving to must be vacant, in both fields. This denotes that the single step was a viable option for opposing Pawn. If that cell on the capturing Pawn's field is occupied by either friend or foe, en passant is not viable since the single step of the opposing Pawn was not possible and thus capture of that Pawn on that cell was not an option. If it is occupied by an another enemy, a simple capture of this enemy piece is still possible but this would not result in the capture of the opposing two-stepping Pawn.
I wrote a Zillions implementation for this game a few years ago. It's located at the Zillions-of-Games website.
Definitely excellent news! I've been suffering jelly-babies withdrawal for so long. ;-) A Doctor Who Chess game. Hmmmmmmm. The Doctor versus the Master with time-jumps. I've got a Temporal 4x4x4 Chess game which might be converted for this form of play. With the shape of the playing field, it might be called Tardis Chess.
I had thought that the Daleks would move either as Bishops or Unicorns in the 3D playing field. This is because they most maintain contact with a specific portion of the field for power. They would capture a piece by merely taking any adjacent cell without moving, like the Shogi Lion. Their movement would be without capture.
Or the sensitivity scale could be based on the minimal number of moves(not turns) needed to threaten an opposing piece. For example: FIDE might be considered equal to 2. White moves then Black can threaten. 1. e4 Nf6(or d5) This will be a fairly easy value to quantify for each game and it involves a prove-able dynamic. Thus limiting the potential for un-intended error based upon bias. Or the value might be the minimal number of moves to threaten an opposing goal piece. This could be difficult to quantify since it might assume poor performance by one player and superior performance of another. And would this value be applied regardless of the potential of capture of the threatening piece? The idea could be to calculate the minimal number of move before one player is forced to perform a move in defense.
Still thinking about the basic dynamics of a new Doctor Who Chess game, and considering a game between un-equal armies. For the sake of development, I'm starting with a plain 2D game. But the field will probably be much larger than 8x8. Possibly the Doctor's force could have special powers associated with co-operative conditions. For example: being able to capture any enemy piece 'sandwiched' between two friendly pieces. And the Master's special powers could have a self-destructive quality. For example: A piece self-destructs taking out all pieces located adjacent. Or a piece, like the Shogi Fire Demon, is able to burn all adjacent pieces both friend and foe. Also most of the pieces of the Doctor's forces might have the ability to simply slide without capturing. This is to simulate the running around that often occurs in the stories. I figure that the Dalek should be the Pawn of the Master's forces. But it should step diagonal without capture, and attack any one adjacent cell without moving as a turn. What would make a good Pawn for the Doctor? Possibly K9, but does anyone have a better idea? And what would its powers be?
I believe that some might be mistaking the simple quantification of a game through prove-able values as a determination of either its play-ability or enjoyment. These values will only establish particular parameters which a game might be categorized. For example: some players will prefer a game which takes a large number of moves to develop before any significant threat occurs, and others will enjoy a game which starts with exchanges. The preference showed these values should be left to the potential player to determine. And this argument can be the source of many challenged games. [Note: I use the term 'argument' in its positive form.]
I like the idea that pieces might change sides during the game. This effect could be associated with the temporal jumps. Obviously, a change in the space-time continuum might result in such shifts. What would be the condition of such shifts? I would restrict temporal jumps specificially to the Doctor and the Master piece. But they each might be able to take associate pieces with them. The temporal jump could be seen as a shock-wave which results in any pieces which are threatened or defended by this piece(and its companion[s]) shifting sides. Gaining an opposing piece would definitely be positive. And possibly losing a friendly piece might be the price to pay for such a move. Temporal jumps would need be controlled. There needs to be very restrictive conditions for such. Ones that allow the opposing player the opportunity to deny a player this ability. This might be associated with the control of a key and/or a particular piece. This actually might be a Tardis piece which is non-moving, except when it space-time leaps. The control of this piece might be based upon possession of its key.
Good point, Fergus. So I would not allow all pieces to be shifted, possibly only Pawns. These would represent fluctuations in the space-time matrix. So, a temporal jump might result in a large number of enemy 'soldiers' to face. But such shifts ought to be limited, or at least conditional. Good idea about U.N.I.T. Soldiers as Pawns. How would they move? They should offer a nice complement to the Daleks. I was also thinking that pieces should also be used as in Shogi. If captured they become the property of the capturer. They would then turn into their counterpart and may be dropped on a turn. This would guarantee sufficient material for any win condition. I had a musing about this particular condition, if the Doctor and Master pieces were allowed to be captured and turned this could result in either two Doctors or two Masters on the field. But this would necessitate that neither be the actual goal of the game. And might the Doctor and Master have multiple 'lives'? I was also thinking about the Tardis piece. It could be a neutral piece which could be used by either player and controlled by an off-board piece(the key). The players would lose and gain possesion of this key under specific conditions. What would be the goal of the game?
Fan-based projects are usually tolerated, as long as there is no attempt to profit without permission or utilize protected items in an in-appropriate manner. Satirical approaches offer a wider venue. But it does not hurt to ask permission. The worst that can happen is they can say 'No!' I would be very surprise if the subsequent set of rules was not accept-able. In the meantime, it doesn't hurt to discuss and speculate. Once the project has been worked up, an outline can be sent to the proper persons for any necessary approval. *************************** The capture of the Doctor or Master could result in its owner needing to buy it back with a particular token denoting a 'new life'. The piece must then be immediately place on the field on that turn, so that a player must always maintain this particular piece on the field. The 'new life' token can be earned during play. It could start with one player and shift between them as the goal pieces are ransomed. So having your Doctor/Master captured without a 'new life' token would mean the loss of the game. This condition could be met as a simple checkmate, as a player without a 'new life' token would not be able to leave their goal piece under attack. I suggest that the Master player begin with this token, giving the Doctor player the incentitive to make the first capture.
Nice idea about the variety of possible Doctors. What could also be included in the buy-back using the 'new life' token is the application of generation of new potential powers for the new Doctor. And would this apply to the Master?. This can be a simple list of possible 'king' types. If they are to be selected randomly, the number of them ought to reflect a multiple of a common die(6). These different 'king' types can be of a wide variety, from the simple stepping 'king' to the powerful leaping 'emperor'. But might this regeneration reflect any of the common Chess moves. For example: Pawn, Knight, Bishop, Rook, Queen or King. That makes six. ;-) But rather than a random selection of the potential types, the player might have a list of potentials to choose from. And each could only be chosen once. Such can be up to the discretion of the player, or the opponent. With the 'new life' token and the changing nature of the goal piece, this game would be very interesting play.
There are many tactics which can be utilized in most variants. For example: maintaining the exchange ratio, obtaining an advantage of value in the exchange, controlling specific sections of the playing field, etc. I believe that Chess Variant players should concentrate on enjoying the games, rather than attempting to 'master' them all. But after playing a few dozen of them, hopefully a wide range of forms, the players may find that they are capable of any.
John, I believe that 'tsui shogi' is exactly the same as 'chu shogi'.
If a Queen is captured during one cycle, is it allowed to re-appear during another? Or must it only be recovered through promotion? I would think that its capture would remove its potential from the field, and therefore it can only be recovered through promotion. This would also be applicable to the other potentials. An observation: as long as a piece remains undefined, each quantum will hold its potential. So at the initial position, it is possible each quantum expresses the power of an Amazon until it is actually moved.
My vote is for option A of rule 7. This is the most logical and simplest interpretation for the potential of this game. It will also encourage a player to cycle through the various pieces, in order to achieve a positional advantage. An opponent might have to be quite wary of any opposing quantum within 'Amazon' range of their King. But there does raise the potential of interesting positions. For example, a player only has the potential of one Rook and one Bishop for the two remaining pieces. And in this position, they might offer a checkmate as un-defined. The opposing King on the far rank, and the two pieces located one on the far rank and the other on the next(classic two Rook checkmate). The opponent is unable to avoid a capture, though only one piece might become the Rook both have the same potential.
Whether by capture or checkmate, the result will be the same. Checkmate only avoids the additional moves needed to effect the capture. Capturing only proves the condition of checkmate.
I like the idea that ALL the quantum on the field must be defined before the cycle starts again, and ALL fall back into the un-defined state when the last one is actually moved(defined). This allows a player to prevent an opponent from gaining advantage with the end of a cycle by simply not moving one of their own pieces. But I've also considered the potential that the quantum are neutral and can be defined by either player under particular conditions. Such as proximity to other friendly pieces, preferably adjacent or possibly simply defended by. Of course, once a player has defined all their possible pieces, the remaining will then become the opponent's. Yet not be readily define-able because of the particular conditions. Remember that the King will always be available to initiate a new cycle. The mind wobbles. Me like.
An un-moved quantum would merely be a potential and not an actual. It would need to be moved to be realized. In other words, it must be 'observed' to be that particular piece, not just surmised. Question: If all quantum are neutral, would a player be allowed to capture them? I would opt for this, it just would not result in the reduction of either players' potentials. Just in the reduction of possible quantums of expression of the players' potentials. As the players might have more potentials than possible quantum, the deduction of a single remaining one might not be precise. Meaning that it would need to be moved to be realized. Whether this is because of a particular value or possible owner.
If a person 'knew' the coin, they might be able to surmise its potential faces. But if a coin is tossed by another person, there is also the possibility of a two-headed or two-tailed coin. ;-) Capturing a quantum does not reduce either players' potentials, just reduce the possible number of expressions of these potentials on the playing field. By capturing a neutral quantum, a player not only reduces their opponent's possibles but also their own. Question: If there are two quantum on the field and the player has two potential Rooks, would they both then be considered defined? Thus ending the cycle rather pre-maturely. I continue to advocate that all the quantum must be actually moved for a new cycle to begin. Whether this cycle is predicated on one or both players. If determined by one player, this should only apply to those quantum which are under their control. This would allow the opposing player the opportunity to express all their potentials. But does not guarantee such. Of course, a new cycle can be initiated by the following: 1. One player has expressed all their potentials on the field. Those particular quantum are re-cycled, or all the quantum are re-cycled. (The latter case would be very punitive for the player who has not had the opportunity to express all their potentials. I would advocate the effect for the player's pieces, giving the opponent opportunity to gain advantage. This does not reduce the player's potential on the field, expect in the possible number of expressions.) 2. All the quantum have been defined and all quantum are recycled. (This might mean that the players have additional potentials in hand. This could also be initiated by the capture of a remaining quantum when both players still have potential in hand.)
I think that there might be a mis-understanding about the intention of my remarks. My advocation of certain forms of play are not demands for compliance. The whole concept of variants within the Chess game is that anything is actually possible. Of course, the players would need to agree on the exact form that they intend to use during a particular game. Here is where mnemonic labels might aid in relating particular rules. For example: If players want all the quantum to be re-cycled, regardless of the determing condition, it might be called a Full Reset. A single player's piece being the only ones re-cycled might be called a Partial Reset. A Reset determined by deduction might be called, you guessed it, Deductive. And one by an actual move of the determing piece might be called Actual. And one which is determined by either player called a Player. And one determined by the entire field of quantum called a Field. So, now players could know what rules were being applied if one desired a Full Field Actual Reset, a Partial Player Deductive Reset, etc. ;-) Is a Partial Field Reset, whether Actual or Deductive, possible?
One in-game difference between a Deductive Reset and an Actual Reset is that the player may desire to utilize the determining piece for a possible capture. Also, the potential capture of this un-defined piece may have an impact on the game, both positional and strategic. What happens if the quantum has been reduced to a single piece and the player has only a single potential? With the Deductive Reset, the quantum would never be expressed and remain in an un-defined state. Of course, the quantum can be considered to have the effect of the possible piece on the field, it would only threaten its potential cells and never be actually moved to them.
So when the situation warrants, the quantum might remain a quantum although it has moved as a specific piece. This will be applicable if players have a single quantum, either apiece or shared, regardless of the number of potentials in hand. The quantum would be moved as the desired piece and yet never be replaced by such. So if a player has a Knight, Bishop and Rook as their potentials and only one quantum in which to express these, the quantum would continuously have the power of an Amazon. Interesting.
'Quantum' is a term actually put forth by the author of this page. 'Bario' is the name of the game. The only other name given to the pieces is 'un-defined pieces'. As to whether the 'un-defined pieces' are owner-specified. This appears to be open to interpretation. Granted that if the 'un-defined pieces' are neutral there will need to be conditionals for the player to use when taking possession. But this is merely a matter of determination. The author of this article has stated that they are not fully aware of all the rules governing this game. Does anyone know of an alternative source for this game? Gary, are you laying claim to this game? Are you advocating that all must adhere to your speculations as to the possible nature in play within this game?
Then I am permitted to actually move the quantum to defined it? Many thanks. I have put forth a possible conditional for the use of neutral quantum. This could be their proximity to friendly pieces, meaning adjacent. If a piece was adjacent both friend and foe, it might remain un-defined or its possesion might be determined by the surrounding material(number and/or value). This would create an interesting dynamic in play as quantum may pass from one player to the other. And players would attempt to control possession of the quantum, while expressing their potentials when possible. And capturing of a quantum would still be a viable option as removing a possible position from an opponent may be more desire-able than allow the piece to remain on the field. Under this rule, the quantum in the initial set-up would be under the control of the player on that side of the field because of the proximity to the Pawns. Without any opposing pieces adjacent, the player is free to express their potentials fully. And this form of play would make a Field Reset very interesting. As now the player might express their pieces on other positions, creating a possibly devastating game. Imagine that such a Reset might actually result in a checkmate. If the Reset is the result of the attacked player's last quantum, they might not be happy with the Deductive form. ;-)
The original graphics for this page showed all the quantum as similar. They have since been changed to differentiate them. Right...wrong...best...worst.... At this point it appears to be a matter of preference. The difference between a Field and Player Reset: In a Field Reset all the quantum on the field must be defined. In a Player Reset, once one player has defined all their potential quantum(there may still be other un-defined quantum on the field). I actually opt for the Field Reset. It seems to comply with the stated rules. The same with the Actual determination of the quantum. Thus my preferred condition would be Full Field Actual Reset. I would also opt for the quantum as neutral. This would greatly increase the level of difficulty in the play. All that needs to be determined is some form of conditionals by which a player may take possession of a particular quantum. I have been working on a very intricate formula, involving not only the adjacent pieces to the quantum but also including the conditions of cells beyond. Granted that this form of play may not appeal to most, but I always look for ways to increase the difficulty in quantify a game rather than making it easier. And the author of this page states that the inventor intended for this game to be the most difficult on Earth. ;-)
I think that I will concentrate on Bario for now. Thanks for the attempt at distraction. With your statement that a neutral game would result in a possible large number of quantum located around the King. It would be necessary that the King is a weighted factor in the determination of which quantum will be utilize by the player. Thus the closer your King to a quantum, there is an exponential factor that you will increase the opportunity to take possession of such. The proximity of Pawns could also play a part in determining the possession of a quantum. A simple rule might be to state that a quantum located on a file behind a player's Pawn(regardless of distance) would have an added factor. This would increase the opportunity to gain possession of quantum on the player's side of the field. As pieces are delevoped, their proximity to quantum will also have an effect.
Here's a simplified formula for determining use of a neutral quantum. Factors (The following values are tentative.) +1 for each friendly piece adjacent -1 for each enemy piece adjacent +1 for each friendly piece defending -1 for each enemy piece attacking. +1 if on file behind a friendly Pawn -1 if on file behind an enemy Pawn +10 if adjacent friendly King -10 if adjacent enemy King +5 if friendly King two cells away -5 if enemy King two cells away. +1 if friendly King three cells away -1 if enemy King three cells away. (The following factors are applicable if players are concerned about the diagonal pattern of their Bishops and can be weighted accordingly to deter Bishops occupying the same diagonal pattern.) +n if piece is to be a Bishop and there is no friendly Bishop on that particular diagonal pattern -n if piece is to be a Bishop and there is a friendly Bishop on that particular diagonal patteern There are many other possible factors to consider when evaluating the potential of a quantum. All factors should be considered for each quantum. Conclusion: If quantum . . . > 0 belongs to player < 0 belongs to opponent = 0 remains undefined ********************************************* It may be suggested that whatever values are utilized that they should be fairly uniform for easy recall, and that the result be a whole number rather than a possible fraction.
Another factor which might be used to determine a neutral quantum is the number of potentials which each player has in hand. This will allow one with the larger amount more opportunity to express them. It can also be a decisive factor in the end-game when the players might be reduced to Kings and a single quantum. This will also have an effect during the mid-game, allowing players to utilize pieces which might be rather remote from the fray. Although the number of quantum may be reduced by capture the number of potentials will continue to have a factor on the field. Thus, +1 for each potential in hand by player -1 for each potential in hand by opponent This will also have an effect during the opening as the players will express their potential in a rather even fashion, attempting to avoid the loss of one of their quantum. A player will be able to express several potentials before the reduction will be a detriment to the initial set-up.
It is necessary to utilize similar tokens to indicate these neutral quantum in a real-world game of Bario. May I suggest red Checkers, they are quite apparent on the field. The players then put their pieces on these tokens as they move them at the turn. So when a Reset occurs, the players can quickly remove their pieces but leave the quantum on the field. Most neutral quantum will be fairly easy to determine which player has control. There will only be a few instances where 'long' calculation will be required, and this will often only occur during some of the mid-game and the end-game. Quantum which are equal to 0 would remain un-defined. Players would have to perform moves in order to gain control(remember that the proximity of the King is one of these factors). The difference in number of pieces that the players have in hand will be a fairly easily calculated factor. And any advantage in the exchange will allow the player opportunity. Gary's suggested form of play is quite interesting, rather than the players having potential pieces in hand they could hold owner-specified quantum(Checkers, red for White and black for Black). Pawns and Kings are owner-defined, the remaining pieces in their standard set-up are all of a neutral color. Thus players can take control of any of these neutral pieces, regardless of rank, under specified conditions. When a Reset occurs, rather then the pieces, the quantums are returned to their specific player. This might be called Reverse Bario. In Reverse Bario, when a Pawn promotes the player will gain an owner-specified quantum with the neutral piece.
Upon further reflection, it would not be necessary for the chess pieces to be of neutral color in Reverse Bario. There need be the rule that only the player may move their King, their Pawns and any other piece occupying one of their quantum(and, regardless of color, all pieces other than Kings and Pawns may be claimed with a quantum under specific conditions). It just may be difficult to visualize the state of the field without much practice. But this should not be impossible. And this would mean that players need not obtain any special equipment to play a real-world game. Or they could simply paint the neutral set themselves with model paint. I suggest bright green, this should make the color of the Checkers(quantum) stand out. Plastic Chess and Checker Sets often can be found for only a dollar or two. So that would not be a huge investment in material.
Yes, the dynamics of Reverse Bario could be quite cruel. But it could be said that a player who left a powerful piece in a position of vulnerability before a Reset deserves to have it taken from them. One problem with looking at a game merely from its potential and not from its actual play is that often its negative aspects are over-rated. A designer must take into account not only the tactics of the players but also the overall possible strategy. With examples, we can point out potential pit-falls but this does not necessitate that every player will succumb. Just as the Fool's Mate is a potential in FIDE Chess. And the advantage after a Reset would not be the sole propriety of one player. Both players will have the potential for this advantage, given the opportunity. Question: Would a player holding the last quantum before a Reset play it? Or would they allow the last neutral piece to be captured? This would be considered an area for strategy. Keeping a quantum in hand to be able to control the Reset, or holding a neutral piece in reserve. Imagine the small battles over the control of the Reset.
Yes, Joe. After a King has performed a castling move, it may make moves and captures on subsequent turns. It may not make a capture during the castling move itself.
In Reverse Bario, factors similar to the one used to deter Bishops from occupying the same diagonal pattern could be used to deter a player from obtaining more than the standard number of particular pieces. For example: If piece to be claimed by the quantum is a Bishop, -n if the player has 2 or more Bishops on the field +n if the opponent has 2 or more Bishops on the field If piece to be claimed by the quantum is a Rook, -n if the player has 2 or more Rooks on the field +n if the opponent has 2 or more Rooks on the field ... If piece to be claimed by the quantum is a Queen, -n if the player has 1 or more Queens on the field +n if the opponent has 1 or more Queens on the field As long as both players remain below the standard number of pieces, these values would have no effect on the game. But when one achieves the conditions, whether through quantum or Pawn promotion, these values would aid or deter each players' subsequent quantum claims. I suggest that this value be 5, this should greatly assist the wanting player while not overly penalizing the achieving player. The positions where a player would be able to obtain more than the standard number of a particular piece should not be often but this potential will influence the game. But this value could be weighted differently for each piece type. For example, according to their exchange value, 3 for Bishops and Knights, 5 for Rooks and 9 for Queens. Adding a level of difficulty for those who enjoy such. [Hand in the air.] This could also be applied to Bario with neutral quantum, making it difficult to re-introduce a promoted piece after a Reset if there is more than its standard number on the field. Although a potentially rare position.
What if a player captures all opposing Pawns, before there is a promotion to King? I would opt for a win condition here to encourage aggressive play.
Or...the Knight which will represent the Crown Prince could be placed atop a red Checker. Thus making it quite distinctive during play.
I like Greg's idea also. What could be created is a submission page which is basically a fill-in-the-blank form. The framework of such a page would be the source of much debate, and should be handle on a separate comment thread.
Many submissions need only be presented in TXT format. With the proper spacing and font sizes, they can be placed in a standard HTML page with the PRE command. I would not recommend freely allowing the upload of graphics, since this can seriously eat up webspace(and there are individuals who will abuse this privilege). Instead, the potential graphics could be demonstrated with ASCII diagrams. And suggestions for the potential graphics, or the web adress of such(usually the authors own homepage, or some other off site), could be included for the editor. Or the graphics might be sent upon request by the editor in a ZIP file, and in a specific format(such as GIF). The submission should have the file names of the graphics for easy reference.
The limit might be the actual memory size of the graphics submitted. This would only apply to any new graphics. So the more existing(on-site and off-site) graphics which are referenced, the more individual and specific graphics may be submitted. This would allow the author to decide the number and size of the individual files. And this maximum memory size could be applicable to the entire webpage submission. Exactly what is the largest variant webpage on this site? Including any that is multi-page.
I'm impressed! Definitely a mind-flip. And with ten players. Really cool. I'm looking forward to the first game. Let me know when.
Dale, May I suggest the following designation for a few of the un-named pieces. Hippogriff = 1,1,2 leaper Wyvern = 1,2,2 leaper These are the classic names for these two 3D Chess pieces. The first given by Kogbetliantz, although he eventually extended the leap of this piece in order to remove its being bound to a single diagonal pattern. The second was given by V. R. Parton.
I have a small observation. Shouldn't the diagonal(E) translation at the central rosette involve all the cells of similar color which touch edgewise on the level? This would correspond to the triagonal(C) translations to the next level. Which are indentical in a cubic field. The only restriction that I would give to diagonal(E) movement is that a piece must translate through opposing edges of the cell when crossing it.
Another observation: The orthogonal(F) translation around the central rosette involves passing through adjoining faces of the cells. Might slides only involve passing through the opposing faces of the cells? The orthogonal piece could still step around the center. It just might not be permitted to make such a continuous slide. Just as Fa1 is orthogonally(F) linked to Hh1, might not Fd1 be orthogonally to He1?
See the following posting which handles this potential: <A HREF=`http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/chessvariants/message/1683`>http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/chessvariants/message/1683</A>
Rather than competing against each other, the players are mutually participating in problem-solving. And each might either help or hinder the solution. This should be a friendly conversational game, with strong players challenging each other to create and duplicate extremely complex positions with the minimum number of moves. This also should be a nice exercise game to aid players in their ability to extrapolate positions in other games.
Un-capturing Pawns would create an interesting dynamic. For instance, forcing the opponent to make a reversed two-step move by performing a reversed en passant. Might not a player move a power piece to the far rank and demote it to a Pawn? And by putting their King in check, they could force the opponent to remove the threat. Obviously, there must be the possibility of removing such a threat. I'm beginning to really like this variant.
How's this for a rule: No Pawn may be un-captured on its player's first rank. Does anyone have others?
In actuality, placing a King in a check position which the opponent cannot remove in the next move would be a loss for the player moving the King. Consider that in a normal flow of events, the checking player would not previously have the opposing King under threat or it would have already been a won game. So in this game, checkmate would still be a loss. There just would be little restriction to placing a King in a checked position. The King would become a piece which the opponent needs to avoid, the player could use the King to influence the opponent's moves. Removing the check of an opposing King would be mandatory. But the player must consider that the opponent must have the ability to remove this check. So placing a King in threat against a Pawn on its initial position would be illegal since that piece would not have the option to remove the threat. Placing the other pieces into initial positions which limit their mobility would take up most of the tactics in this game. For example: the Rooks in their initial position would not be forced to move if their Pawns are also in position. Rather than controlling the center of the field, players might attempt to control the outer cells.
'Blitz' est allemande pour la foudre. N'avez-vous pas su de Blitzkrieg, la guerre de la foudre?
'Éclaire' n'a pas la même signification que la foudre, qui est la signification exacte du 'blitz'. Est-ce que c'est simplement une expression Français-Canadienne?
Although the term 'blitz' has developed into a particular form of attack(a shortening of the term 'blitzkrieg'), the original German is 'lightning'. Which answered the question for Vanessa, a self-described translator, about its possible meaning in French. Who was most probably interested in the etymology of the word. 'Attaque éclaire' translates to 'light attack'. The meaning of 'light' being not about weight but about vision. 'Éclaire' could probably be better translated as 'lit'. 'Tournoi de blitz' = Lightning Tournament. ;-)
Ainsi, 'blitz' pourrait être considérée l'expression universelle?
You must resolve the check on your King. If this can involve checking the
opponent, good for you. But your King cannot be in check at the end of
your move.
If you are unable to remove the check on your King, you are mated and have
lost the game.
Looking back over the previous postings, I realized that I had not given this game an evaluation. Let me first say that I have a special bias toward the 10x10 field, and always look for a good game to play on it. Examples too numerous to list here. If all that has been used to judge this game is its Zillions implementation, a player will not correctly experience this game. Zillions has a tendency to over-value a few of the pieces, and its strategic 'thought' process is quite lacking. Until someone develops a decent DLL engine, this game is best played between living opponents. And please understand that this is not a negative evaluation of Zillions, a great game engine that is designed for general game play. I've had the joy of playing this game against a young relative recently. Granted we were not that expert in play and at first got movements of a couple of pieces confused but we very much enjoyed several games. It had a slight XiangQi feel to it, with the whole playing field acting as the 'palace'. [I have several plastic chess sets with pieces trimmed with gold paint to denote special powers. We use modified Bishops for Unicorns, modified Rooks for Lions and modified Knights for Dragons.]
The short answer, Mike, is NO! You cannot make a move which leaves your King in check.
This would be a great question to ask the FIDE: Why is checkmate the only win condition in Chess and all else are draws? I'm sure that there was a great debate about this during the adoption of the Mad Queen variant as their advocated game. So there ought be a large amount of data to back up these decisions. (Or the decision could have been a form of simplication, one win condition only and all else resulting in un-decided games.)
Doug, Technically, you might be right. But are those conditions applicable to each and every game? Resignation could be considered merely a recognition by that player of the potential of eventual checkmate.
Disturbingly funny. Its upgrade reasoning has an air of familiarity. ;-)
If anyone is interested, I've worked up a Zillions implementation of this game. After about the tenth turn, the field will look like it got hit by a blizzard.
Good point about the discovered check with that particular rule. I used a little programming trick to get this to work. I'll send you the implementation so that you can admire it. But basically, I used the Zillions engine itself to perform most of the function. As to the shape of the Knight leap, I opted for the simple 'L' pattern. This means that Pawns orthogonally adjacent to the Knight's position are captured using this rule. This would continue to allow Pawns to threaten the Knight un-opposed. But if there is a big demand to include any adjacent Pawn, I can implement this in a variant. This implementation is still in need of some serious play-testing.
Peter, I tried to send you a copy of the implementation. The e-mails are returned as undeliverable. Is your address listed on this site active?
May I suggest that these two seperate Chess programs be compared based upon search depth and not time. Reasoning: One program may have an efficient depth search, allowing it to look deeper faster. So based upon time, it would always look further ahead in play. Giving it a slight strategic advantage. The other program with a less efficient depth search, and allowed to obtain the same depth of the first program, may (or may not) 'discover' alternate moves which the first program rejected for efficiency. Now, I am not saying that Zillions will perform better than ChessV if it was giving this consideration. Only that it would be a fair evaluation of the strength of these programs, rather than their speed.
The three-time repetition rule usually involves position rather specific piece movement. So if the same position, with the same number and type of pieces, is repeated three times it is considered a draw. Players need not consider positions before a capture or promotion, regardless of the particular rules of a variant(such as drops, spawning, etc.) And this raises a question: In games with drops, does the pieces in hand count with the position on the field?
Previous versions of this game conflict with all currently known operating systems. Thus they were not offered for fear of the horrendous damage they might cause and the potential of liability. ;-)
<p>I will submit your request to the roomful of monkeys.
The hurdle of developing a 3D Chess game is the minimum number of pieces necessary to mate an opposing King. Have you determined this condition? Does your initial setup offer a sufficient force? Whereas two 2D Rooks can push a 2D King into a mate, it takes more than four 3D Rooks to push a 3D King. The addition of the triagonal slide to the 3D Rook's normally orthogonal movement may improve this(BTW, this piece is known as a Narwhal), but by what factor? Even with the presence of a 3D Queen, how many other pieces would be needed to force a mate? I think you may find that your game will be quite draw-ish. You may need to adjust it to reduce this potential. Might I be so bold as to ask if you've consider the use of the Shogi capture-and-drop rules(and maintaining the FIDE Pawn promotions). This would definitely liven this game and assure a player of sufficient pieces. If you haven't done so, may I suggest that you join the following Yahoo! Group: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/3-d-chess/ A lot of these topics have been covered in previous postings at this site. You may find the information very helpful.
Since each player is allowed to choose their army, under pre-determined restrictions, they would be entering these games with what they thought would be their best chance at these games. The recommended restrictions are quite restrictive, others may opt for a little more lee-way. Generating those armies would be a great source of conversation between the players. How many simple sliders, how many leapers, how may leaper-sliders, how many compound sliders or leapers, etc. Given that there are 12 potential pieces(not including Pawns), players might opt for pairs and have six different types. But what would restrict them from having twelve different pieces? Nothing, if they both agreed. Another way to restrict the pieces would be to make a limited list of particular forms of movement, such as orthogonal slide, camel leap, diagonal step, etc. Then build the desired pieces from this list, under a pre-determined limitation for the various combinations. There could also be the restriction of a single move-type allowed for a single piece-type. In other words, once a move-type was selected for one piece it could not be assigned to another. Even after the generation of pieces, there is the initial set-up patterns. What restrictions might be applied, and would there really be a necessity? And what about the additional application of other rules, such as drops, spawning, shooting, etc. Their impact on these games staggers the mind. The potential for these games is astronomical. And I doubt very seriously that anyone would ever be able to properly quantify them all in their lifetime.
The difficulty of checkmating a 3D Chess King has been one of the banes of 3D Chess design. I've actually come to the conclusion that simple linear pieces are un-satisfactory to this task, and now opt for the use of planar pieces. But these pieces are quite difficult for most to visualize and may take a few years for acceptance. And the planar piece actually fulfills the necessary extrapolation into 3D. In 2D, the linear piece being 1D in its actual move(whether or not this involves a change of one or two axes) is quite sufficient to control various aspects of the playing field. In goes to follow that in 3D, the planar piece being 2D in its actual move should accomplish the same effect. This would also mean that fewer pieces are necessary during the opening set-up in 3D. This may also make the 8x8x8 playing field seem a little barren. Then we eventually come to the problem of the Pawn in 3D. This piece no longer has the entire function that it served in 2D. It is quite difficult to build and maintain effective Pawn structures in 3D. They mainly end as simple speed bumps in the 3D game. So the 3D power of the Pawn needs much more research to create an effective piece. What would be the best extrapolation of the Pawn into the 3D playing field?
I know that I've often laughed at my own frustration trying to decipher the rules of this game. :-) It does make for an interesting read.
Downloaded this implementation and gave it a go. Very interesting play. I do have a couple of observations, and these maybe totally personal. First, there appears to be far too many Generals in the initial set-up. I know that there is an attempt to provide a good strong starting defensive position. But with so many Generals, the game appears to devolve often into a General and Pawn War. As an experiment, I eliminated all the Generals on the second rank and ran the game. It was quite lively with early threats to each of the Shahs. And the flying pieces seemed to participate longer in the game. Granted there could be a few more Generals, but I think that the current number might be rather excessive. How about six? This would correspond to the number of pieces on the first rank. These could be situated on b2, c3, e2, f2, h3 and i2. Second, the arrangement of the opposing pieces mirroring the first player does not seem appropriate to a game with an oriental theme. I would arrange the opposing first rank pieces right-to-left similar to the first player rather than mirroring.
Very interesting. I would be happy to assist in making a ZRF of this game.
With the Sho able to spawn Pawns, and Pawns able to promote to any other piece, there really does not appear that drops are needed. Unless the author has an idea for the graphics of these pieces, I would be happy to give it a go. Maybe something symbolic and oriental, without using Kanji. How about Katakana?
This all depends upon the pattern of these random tiles. But if they are composed of similar cells, you might have a large background of these cells which are covered by blackout pieces. The selection of the random tiles would actually result in the capture of these blackout pieces. This way there will only be a single piece located in this area when you place the playing pieces on the now exposed field. Another way is to have the edges of the cells of these random tiles rendered seperately, leaving the center of the cell blank. A square cell would need to have each of its four sides rendered. For cells of other shapes(triangles or hexagons) the angled sides would need to be render in sections. For example, if the sides were two pixels wide they might need to be rendered in 4x4 pixel sections. This would mean a lot of positions declared on the board in the implementation, but those positions which are used by the playing pieces need be the only ones which have links.
A small inner-game dynamic question: Can a Sho actually spawn other pieces on its seventh, eighth and ninth ranks? It would be similar to a Pawn moving onto these ranks and then promoting. Granted that the file restriction ought to be enforced. (zzo38)A.Black, did you know that hiragana is often used to denote a feminine form? This is not to say that it would not be proper to use but it might convey that meaning. Katakana(sword strokes) are slightly more aggressive.
Stephane, you may be confusing planar pieces with the dynamics of my Planar 4x4x4 Chess. Check out Gavin Smith's game for the dynamics of planar pieces: http://www.chessvariants.org/3d.dir/prince.html I have recently began advocating that the moves of diagonal and triagonal planar pieces should not contain voids within their planes. This would reduce their power but could make visualization of their moves a bit easier and maybe more logical. This is based upon the reasoning that a linear piece might normally not be allowed to leap across voids in a field. Forgive my rants about 3D Chess, it is one of the passions of my life. I hold out the hope that one day a 3D game will be developed which will receive enough acceptance as to actually supplant the Mad Queen's variant.
The drawish-ness of 3D Chess is not predicated upon the turn order but upon the material necessary to form a mating position. With linear pieces it can take a larger number of pieces compared to 2D to accomplish this task. And with the potentially large number of moves to complete the average game, any first-move advantage is almost imperceptible. Some 3D Chess developers have introduced an extremely powerful piece which could make a checkmate by it lonesome. But this does not guarantee a mate since this piece might not survive to the end-game or, if created through promotion, might never appear. Planar pieces solve this problem by reducing the overall number of pieces on the field. But this does not mean that linear pieces should not be utilized in 3D. But like the Ferz and Wazir in 2D, they may find themselves reduced in value and application as minor pieces in 3D.
I've completed a ZRF for Kozune, now testing it for errors. Hopefully, I'll post it before the end of the week.
Chris Witham's '3D Chess, a different way of looking at it' is not the first paper about planar pieces. I suggest checking out 'Exploring the Realm of Three-Dimensional Chess' by Dave Erick Watson, published in 1997 by The Oak Hill Free Press. Watson discusses several ways to interpret planar pieces, including giving particular patterns names(such as lace, gossamer, stairway, checkered, etc.) And he doesn't state that he was the originator of such potential pieces. Leaving open the possibility that someone else might have. And he writes, 'If the chessboard is going to be kicked up a dimension, then we had better kick the piece moves up a dimension too!'
Restricting the movement of the King has been tried in several games. And this does increase the potential for mate, or at the least stalemate. But this form of restriction has not been totally accepted by the entire 3D Chess community, which often feels that such is anathema to the purpose of of a 3D game. In other words, why expand the potential of the playing field then begin truncating the movement of the pieces? The primary complaint of introducing more the powerful planar pieces to the game is that they are much more difficult to visualize not only during their single turn movement but to extrapolate their position several moves into the game. Some have even suggested that the human mind is just not capable to properly calculate such vast potentials. I have a better opinion of the human mind. Given the proper training and familiarity with any subject, it is more than up to the task. Of course, this may mean that the individuals who play 3D Chess in the future may not be able to do anything else. Not much different than some of the current FIDE Grandmasters. ;-)
Good idea about starting a thread about 3D Chess. I apologize to Stephane for clutteringup his page with all the extraneous material and debate. One of the mis-conceptions about planar pieces is that because of their wide range of motion that this somehow diminishes their tactical value. Basically turning a sniper position into a machine gun nest. They definitely make defending the King on an open field(or at least lightly-crowded field) almost impossible. But during the opening portion of the game, they are quite restricted in movement by the presence of other pieces. They get in each others' way. If they are only a small percentage of the ranked pieces on the field, the player would be reluctant to risk them without cause. The linear pieces would then be relegated to the front lines, taking the threats of theopposing planar pieces and blocking their potential moves. There is also the potential that planar pieces could be short-range. For example, their planes could be limited to 4x4. This would still give them quite an influence on the field. On one of the central cells of the 8x8x8 field, they could still command the entire volume. This might actually make for an interesting variant. Hmmmmmmmmm. Another restriction might be that planar pieces make only capture moves. They could then threaten portions of the field and an opponent might actually draw a planar piece into a negative position. Needless to say, the potentials of the planar piece is far from totally defined.
The question that would then arise about dropped pieces is 'what about promoted Pawns?' Would the player be allowed these new pieces if captured? Or would the promoted pieces by reduced to Pawns and discarded(since the Sho can spawn them anytime). If the promoted pieces were allowed to be played by the captor, this could make for a potentially crowded field(though unlikely no more so than the standard game). If not, the promoted piece could be sacrificed, knowing that the captor would not be able to take advantage of the capture. I would opt for not allowing the player to drop promoted pieces. ********************* Another idea: Restricting promotion to capture pieces. A player would only be allowed to promote to a piece which had been previously captured by the opponent. This would mean that unless the proper piece was available, the player would not promote when entering the seventh and eighth rank. But on the ninth rank, the Pawn could freely promote to the Kozune since it is not part of the initial setup.
As an abstract game fan, I definitely like this game. One that is quite difficult to quantify. The players placing opponent pieces is a nice twist. Although it might be stated that the connectivity of the pieces is based upon their movement. This is obvious by the example, but the plain text might give the impression of simple adjacency.
For those who are interested, I've posted an implementation for this game
at the Zillions website.
Just click here for the zip file.
I would really need to see the code of this implementation to give a good evaluation. I would only be guessing at this point.
Quite logical. This rule should be applicable to any FRC game.
It is obvious that the Anti-Stanleys have reconstituted their effort to eradicate SRC. The previous attempt resulted in decades of repression, lost documents and rather boring knock-offs of SRC, like the Mad Queen variant which many still believe is the original game of Chess. Anti-Stanleyism is an ugly thing. Usually the genetic result of the absence of the buffo-osso. There are maintenance techniques which can counter-act this deficiency. Visit the ASA(Anti-Stanley Anonymous) website for a list of phrenologists which will be glad to assist in alleviating this crippling condition. The local support groups are quite nice, too. Unfortunately, the effect of the Anti-Stanley movement cannot be totally wiped out. There usually survives a Master and an Apprentice.
I personally believe that pushing sleeping trolls over, or 'trolling', is a cruel and rather childish act. And besides it has nothing to do with SRC since the use or participation of trolls is strictly forbidden by the 1987 Articles of the Tongalese SRC Convention. It's not that trolls have low IQs which cause the problems, it just that when they become fixated. This can result in them endlessly staring at such things as moving fan blades, constantly digging in their noses, or humming the same tune over and over and over.... But SRC still commemorates their past participation by tournament audiences spontaneously breaking into rousing rounds of 'Pop Goes the Weasel'. The humming of such by a player can result in severe penalization.
The rules use a different term explaining the capture movement of these pieces, but is the actual translation the same? Obviously, the final effect of the movement is different. For example, the term 'hurl' is used to describe the Dwarf capture move. Does this mean that a Dwarf can pass over, or leap, other pieces to strike their target? Or is the translation exactly like the 'shove' of the Trolls, a movement through vacant cells until it strikes its target?
Just started studying this game. So I'll not make any evaluation at this point. It does look interesting. Even the Missiles. If Andy doesn't mind, I'll work a Zillions implementation to play the game. I'll include all the end-game conditions.
Just worked up a Zillions implementation and let the engine run through a game with Maximum Strength, mid-range Variety and 3 minute Time. The game ended with Blue winning in less than 40 turns. Some observations: The Gauntlet gives the dynamic of the 'castle' of XiangQi. The Missiles were not brought into play until well within the mid-game, and it appears that the first to use them will lose them. Neither side brought their Colonels into play during the entire game but this might be just a simple idiosyncrasy of the Zillions engine. I'll be running at least a dozen more games at various settings before I make my final conclusions.
Fortunately, Topov provided himself with a large contingency of clones. Each being thoroughly trained and legally able to repesent the original.
Gone through a few more games. Haven't reached 50 turns yet. So it seems that the 50 turn rule is not a problem. It would probably handle position repetition situations. Those Colonels have still not jumped. I checked to be sure that they work. For some reason, Zillions is just not considering them part of the equation. Possibly because it takes several moves before they come into contact with enemy which are greater in value than they. I might run a game with a 8 move search depth and infinite time. This may just take a lot of computing. The military terms for the pieces is fine. Very Shogi-y. I see no reason to make any adjustments. Though some Chess variant purists balk at thematic games. But that's their problem. And those Missiles are great. Their threat can be felt at every move.
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