[ Help | Earliest Comments | Latest Comments ][ List All Subjects of Discussion | Create New Subject of Discussion ][ List Latest Comments Only For Pages | Games | Rated Pages | Rated Games | Subjects of Discussion ]Comments/Ratings for a Single Item Later ⇩Reverse Order⇧ Earlier⇩ Earliest⇧ The Sultan's Game. Variant on 11 by 11 board from 19th century Germany. (11x11, Cells: 121) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating] Jörg Knappen wrote on Mon, Jan 9 05:42 PM UTC in reply to Jean-Louis Cazaux from 03:43 PM:And the use of RNF and BNW in Pocket Mutation Chess by Michael Nelson predates all of this, just their names a purely technical there (SuperCardinal and SuperChancellor). But I agree, these pieces play well on big boards. Jean-Louis Cazaux wrote on Mon, Jan 9 03:43 PM UTC in reply to Georgi Markov from 01:33 PM:@Georgi: I have also used the RNK and BNK here: https://www.chessvariants.com/rules/very-heavy-chess Jörg Knappen wrote on Mon, Jan 9 03:06 PM UTC in reply to Georgi Markov from 01:33 PM:Here is one genuine German Franz Tressan from Verden an der Aller: https://portal.dnb.de/opac.htm?method=simpleSearch&cqlMode=true&query=idn%3D110743078X My pieces are free to reuse and I feel flattered that you like them. Georgi Markov wrote on Mon, Jan 9 01:33 PM UTC in reply to Jörg Knappen from Sun Jan 1 07:24 AM:Thank you very much for your comments! You certainly have a point. It never occurred to me that Oettinger might have been just guessing, I assumed he knew the author's name from elsewhere and opted for "Tressau" even though the last letter looks a lot like "n" indeed. Plus the only Tressans I could find while surfing the web were French. On an unrelated subject, I shamelessly appropriated your Archchancellor and Crown Princess for a reformed variant of the Duke of Rutland's chess based on Charles Gilman's Modern Manners, here: https://hal-univ-paris13.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-03737330/document (And of course the short superqueen suggested by Stefan Härtel and me for a reformed version of Turkish great chess is your Archchancellor again but I don't think I was aware of it when writing that paper). I think those two pieces (RNK and BNK) work really well on large boards. Jörg Knappen wrote on Sun, Jan 1 07:24 AM UTC in reply to Georgi Markov from Fri Oct 14 2022 09:24 AM:@Georgi Markov Thanks for your publication on Sultansspiel and Kaiserspiel, and special thanks for publishing it in an open access journal. Now I finally know where that ominous "Ludwig Tressau" comes from. However, I think that the common publishing place Leipzig is not suitable to draw far-reaching conclusions: At that time, Leipzig was the hub of German book publication and had the largest concentration of publication houses all over Germany. Also, Ludwig is the most probable expansion of the initial L. and may be an interpolation by Oettinger. The second most probable expansion would be Louise or Luise, a feminine name, and the fact that the author hides consistently behind the initial makes this possibility even more probable. Having said this, Tressan is an extremely rare surname in Germany, and Tressau is even more obscure. I searched some huge databases of personal names (telephone directory and DNB Normdatei) and Tressan occurs once or twice, but Tressau has no hits at all. It should be feasible to identify that specific "L. Tressan/L. Tressau" using genealogical databases without sifting through too many hits. Georgi Markov wrote on Fri, Oct 14, 2022 09:24 AM UTC in reply to Georgi Markov from Mon Oct 25 2021 04:37 PM: I'll provide a link when it's published. And here it is: https://sciendo.com/article/10.2478/bgs-2022-0017 Georgi Markov wrote on Sun, Dec 5, 2021 06:48 PM UTC in reply to Greg Strong from 06:20 PM: Hi Georgi, The easiest way, (and the way I use), is to switch the format from Markdown to WYSIWYG. Then click the quotation marks from the toolbar to enter blockquote mode. Then copy the text you want to quote from the section above the edit form and paste it in. Hitting the enter key twice will exit blockquote mode so you can start typing your response. Thanks a lot Greg! 📝Greg Strong wrote on Sun, Dec 5, 2021 06:20 PM UTC in reply to Georgi Markov from 03:41 PM: But I still haven't learned how to incorporate a previous message or parts of it. Hi Georgi, The easiest way, (and the way I use), is to switch the format from Markdown to WYSIWYG. Then click the quotation marks from the toolbar to enter blockquote mode. Then copy the text you want to quote from the section above the edit form and paste it in. Hitting the enter key twice will exit blockquote mode so you can start typing your response. Georgi Markov wrote on Sun, Dec 5, 2021 03:41 PM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from Thu Dec 2 07:30 PM:My comment here on Oct 20th was in reply to your previous one in fact. But I still haven't learned how to incorporate a previous message or parts of it. H. G. Muller wrote on Thu, Dec 2, 2021 07:30 PM UTC in reply to Jean-Louis Cazaux from 06:37 PM: When castling, the king move four squares toward one of the rooks, and the rook jumps to the other side of the king. That definitely sounds more sensible. I had to add a special parameter castlingGap to the Interactive Diagram to support the weird way of castling that is described in the text. (I see the Diagram in the article has already been changed to castle in the normal way, though, unlike the one I first published in the comments.) Jean-Louis Cazaux wrote on Thu, Dec 2, 2021 06:37 PM UTC:The rule of castling is not correct as far as the Rook is concerned. When castling, the king move four squares toward one of the rooks, and the rook jumps to the other side of the king. This will be corrected in future editions of A World of Chess, by JL.Cazaux and R.Knowlton. In addition, the name Tressan has to be corrected to Tressau on this page. 📝Greg Strong wrote on Wed, Oct 27, 2021 02:29 PM UTC in reply to Jean-Louis Cazaux from Tue Oct 26 07:31 PM: Maybe the text of this page should be corrected, also because my book is cited (thanks). In this book, we used Tressau. Yes, sorry, this was a mistake. I changed the name on the Emperor's Game page when I updated it but overlooked making the same change here. I'll get it corrected. Jean-Louis Cazaux wrote on Tue, Oct 26, 2021 07:31 PM UTC:Like Georgi Markov, I confirm that I believe that the name of the cited author is Tressau and not Tressan. Maybe the text of this page should be corrected, also because my book is cited (thanks). In this book, we used Tressau. That being said, the gothic script which is used for the original German book is not easy to distinguish an "u" from an "n". Georgi Markov wrote on Mon, Oct 25, 2021 09:40 PM UTC in reply to Bn Em from 08:32 PM:Thank you very much indeed! Meanwhile, I realized I seem to have somehow misread your "search for the Archiv der Spiele" as "search within"; I hope this link works: https://books.google.bg/books?id=If5dAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false Bn Em wrote on Mon, Oct 25, 2021 08:32 PM UTC in reply to Georgi Markov from 04:37 PM:Indeed, that was my impression from his book as well; I'd initially missed the detail of how recent this variant was and had assumed it significantly older (and I don't trust people to count like we do today(!)). I enjoyed the other papers you posted here and look forward to reading this one too Georgi Markov wrote on Mon, Oct 25, 2021 04:37 PM UTC in reply to Bn Em from 03:55 PM:Tressau modified the rules for the Kaiserspiel (e.g. castling rule is different in the Archiv der Spiele description) and practically developed the rules for the Sultanspiel himself based on Peguilhen's initial - but never fully developed - idea. Later sources are ultimately based on Tressau, with errors. Thus it's Tressau's rules that should be taken as definitive, the illustrative games were played by Tressau himself and after his own rules, so there is hardly any chance for a misunderstanding. There's a discussion of all that in my paper in press, I'll provide a link when it's published. Bn Em wrote on Mon, Oct 25, 2021 03:55 PM UTC in reply to Georgi Markov from 01:11 PM:Ok, having actually gone to find a copy online, I agree that Tressau specifies the Kb/j–Rc/i castle; in principle one could still object that the example games may not be played by the original rules (while he says they're real, rather than constructed, games, it could still be under the influence of a misunderstanding), but it seems upon a cursory reading that for the Sultan's Game in particular his book may in fact be the original source? The Emperors Game is cited in the Spielarchiv, but Tressau explicitly notes (p.80) that a game with a Marshal had been suggested there but not described, rather being rejected due to the necessary odd number of files being unwieldy (in particular due to either same‐colour bishops or transposition of one bishop but not the other with its adjacent knight). Unfortunately a quick search for the Archiv der Spiele online appears entirely fruitless so I can't confirm that… Georgi Markov wrote on Mon, Oct 25, 2021 01:11 PM UTC in reply to Bn Em from Thu Oct 21 12:24 PM:Tressau does not explicitly mention how many spaces the rook goes, but the landing square for R in the Sultan's game is obvious enough from the provided illustrative games: see mating position in game 1 (p. 87) and move 28 in game 4 (p. 89). [On move 20, White castles "to the right"; move 28 is Ri1-f1, or 119 to 116 in the original notation; that's the first R move after castling]. Bn Em wrote on Thu, Oct 21, 2021 12:24 PM UTC in reply to Georgi Markov from Wed Oct 20 10:20 PM:Is that Tressau's interpretation? And do we know how much info the original sourcs gives on the matter? After all if the latter does specify, as this article does, that both pieces move four spaces each, the Kc/i–Rd/h interpretation would make sense both in terms of preserving usual castling and lining up with the frequent use of inclusive counting (see also paragraph 4 of the Comments in Cazaux' page on Grant Acedrex) Georgi Markov wrote on Wed, Oct 20, 2021 10:20 PM UTC in reply to Bn Em from 06:06 PM:K to b/j, R to c/i. Bn Em wrote on Wed, Oct 20, 2021 06:06 PM UTC in reply to Georgi Markov from 04:35 PM:When saying ‘four squares’, is that counted inclusively or exclusively? In the former case, both king and rook moving ‘four’ squares each would in fact land next to each other, on the bishops and adjutant's squares on the queenside and the marshall's and knight's on the commanderside. Georgi Markov wrote on Wed, Oct 20, 2021 04:35 PM UTC:In fact, the rook - both here and in the Emperor's game - does end up next to the king. After Tressau's (and I believe this is the correct name, not Tressan: see Oettinger’s Bibliotheca Shahiludii) rules for the Sultan's game, K moves four squares towards R which lands on the adjacent square. Check the illustrative games in Tressau's book. I have a paper in press in the Board Game Studies Journal dealing with the Emperor's game and the Sultan's game which I hope will be published in 2022; will provide a link when it is. H. G. Muller wrote on Tue, May 11, 2021 05:16 PM UTC:I only notice now that these variants have weird castling rules, where the Rook doesn't end up next to the King. At the moment the diagram doesn't support that. Also for lack of a Betza notation for this. The On castling implies the castling partner ends on the opposit adjacent square. [Edit] For now I solved this problem by allowing additional specification of the castling type through diagram parameters, rather than introducing new XBetza notation. For this I implemented a new parameter castleGap, default value 1, which corresponds to normal castling. The idea is that for castleGap > 0 the destination of the Rook will be that of the King, minus castleGap times the basic King step. For castleGap=1 the Rook would thus end up next to the King on the inside, while castleGap=2 would leave an empty square between R and K, etc. If castleGap < 1, however, the reference point is the King's square of origin, instead of the destination. That means that castleGap=-1 gives the type of castling we want here: the Rook ends next to the square where the King started (just as the King ends next to where the Rook started, so that they move by an equal amount.) Jörg Knappen wrote on Tue, May 11, 2021 01:44 PM UTC in reply to Greg Strong from 12:36 PM:Thanks Greg. Can you update the Emperor's Game as well? 📝Greg Strong wrote on Tue, May 11, 2021 12:36 PM UTC in reply to Jörg Knappen from Mon May 10 01:00 PM:Thanks, Jörg! These corrections have been incorporated. 25 comments displayedLater ⇩Reverse Order⇧ Earlier⇩ Earliest⇧Permalink to the exact comments currently displayed.