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Pocket Mutation Chess. Take one of your pieces off the board, maybe change it, keep it in reserve, and drop it on the board later. (8x8, Cells: 64) (Recognized!)[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Joseph DiMuro wrote on Tue, Mar 4, 2003 03:42 AM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
I concur with Michael Howe. This game is great! The variants section says
that this game could be played with another piece list; I say, LEAVE THE
LIST ALONE! :-) The pieces work fine as they are, and they are pretty easy
to remember.

I too received a preview version of the ZRF. The old version allowed PAWNS
to be dropped directly on the 8th rank, but no other pieces. With that
rule in place, promoting a pawn would take 4 moves (pocket, drop, pocket,
drop promoted piece). Now it takes 5 moves, since the pawn can't be
dropped on the 8th rank. And is it worth 5 tempi to make a pawn a bishop?
I originally thought the promotions would dominate the game... shows you
how much I know! :-) 

This is a must download... or it will be, once the download is available.
:-)

Tim Stiles wrote on Tue, Mar 4, 2003 05:04 AM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
Sounds pretty good. Can't wait for the ZRF file. Oh, there's a typo in the sentance that describes how the Amazonrider moves.

💡📝Michael Nelson wrote on Tue, Mar 4, 2003 03:27 PM UTC:
There will be a ZRF posted.  Until it's on the CV pages, I will send a
copy by email to anyone who requests it.

I think my playing tip about not using the pocket just to mutate a piece
might well be extended to promotion as well -- don't aim for promotion as
your sole objective -- try to gain a material or positional advantage in
addition.

The kind of pawn promotion I like is dropping a pawn on the seventh rank
to fork two pieces and threaten to make a Bishop or Knight.

In general, moves with multiple objectives will be even more frequent than
in FIDE Chess.

Astute readers will notice that the value classes are based on Ralph
Betza's Atomic Thoery of Piece Values.  The equivalances are not exact --
a SuperBishop is measurably stronger than a Rook, but the difference is
small enough (half a pawn, maybe) that positional factors can easily
override it.

If anyone does want an alternate piece set, I would suggest a coherent
set based on a small number of elements.  My piece set is based on three
pieces (Knight, Bishop, Rook) and their combinations plus three
enhancements (change Knight to Nightrider, add Wazir to Bishop, add Ferz
to Rook).

💡📝Michael Nelson wrote on Tue, Mar 4, 2003 05:10 PM UTC:
Promotion does dominate the endgame. When the board gets empty, the number of pieces is often more important than their strength--the player with more pieces can usually afford to trade a Queen for a Rook or sometimes a Bishop. King and anything vs. King is a win--the enemy King can't defend the whole eighth rank. So you just keep promoting or mutating until you have King and Rook vs. King or better.

Tony Quintanilla wrote on Wed, Mar 5, 2003 06:01 AM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
This is a great game. I am playing a game with the author. So far, I've only made 'standard' chess moves, waiting for the right time to put a piece in the pocket. Once the board starts to clear up, the gain in position will outweigh the loss in time. There will be a lot of drops in the end game. The simplicity of the idea of the Pocket and the possibilities it provides make for a very nice game. There is a whole new dimention to piece development. Its almost like a 2-turn teleport move. I agree with the author that this 'game system' could be used with other piece arrays. It could even be used in hexagonal Chess--why not? The details of what piece can promote where, to what can be modified as needed for playability.

💡📝Michael Nelson wrote on Thu, Mar 6, 2003 09:49 PM UTC:
Some thoughts on the pieces:

The pawn is about the same value as in FIDE Chess: while it can only
promote to Bishop, it promotes to a Bishop that is itself promotable.

I don't expect to see an AmazonRider in an actual well-played game, but I
just had to have it for logical completeness. I wonder if an AmazonRider
is really all that more powerful than an Amazon on an 8x8 board: the
difference certainly feels less than the gap between Knight and
Nightrider.

The SuperChancellor can mate unassisted--the only value class 6 piece
which can do so.

The leveling effect among pieces of the same value class is stronger than
in other chess variants, since by spending a tempo, you can mutate one
into another. On the other hand, among pieces in the same value class
their are slight differnces in value based on the type of position.  In
open/wide open positions, the most valuable move components seem to be
Rook, Bishop, Knight in order and Wazir or Ferz is a more valuable
enhancement than Nightrider.  In closed/severly closed positions, the
reverse is true.  In-between positons seem to favor Bishops.

Daniel Roth wrote on Fri, May 9, 2003 06:03 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
This is an excellent game! The pocket allows for many surprises.
I played its zrf many times and I found a very small error in it. The
piece CancellorRider is missing its one step diagonal move.

💡📝Michael Nelson wrote on Fri, May 9, 2003 10:19 PM UTC:
Daniel,

Thank you for finding the bug in the ZRF (it actaully affected the
SuperChancellorRider).  I have subbitted a corrected zrf to the CV pages.

💡📝Michael Nelson wrote on Sat, Jun 21, 2003 04:11 PM UTC:
I have been experimenting with a Chessgi-type variant of Pocket Mutatution. Add the following simple rule: When a player captures an enemy piece, if the player's pocket is empty, the enemy piece becomes a friendly piece (no mutation) and is put in to the player's pocket; if the player's pocket is not empty, the captured piece is removed from the game. This rule also makes an intriguing variant when added to FIDE Chess.

Tony Quintanilla wrote on Mon, Aug 11, 2003 04:37 AM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
The middle game develops very nicely. At first I thought that there would be a lot of drops. It turns out that the tempo lost in putting a piece in the pocket is very important, so this option cannot be wasted. The game develops very closely to FIDE Chess. The mutation aspect of the pocket actually adds more to the dynamics of the game than the drop itself, it seems. Promotions do not seem to be any more prevalent in the middle game than in FIDE.

💡📝Michael Nelson wrote on Mon, Aug 11, 2003 02:18 PM UTC:
A particular mutation that is often worth doing early is to pocket a Rook and mutate to Nightrider. This has technical merit and is also an excellent bit of psychological warfare--your opponent can't help but wonder 'What is he going to do to me with that Nightrider?'

Antoine Fourrière wrote on Sat, Sep 13, 2003 06:20 AM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
I'm presently losing my game of Pocket Mutation Chess against Peter
Aronson in Invent-and-Play Section 2, and it is obviously a very enjoyable game.
I blew up my position at move 5:

1. Rook h1 - WP = Nightrider
1. Pawn d7 - d5
2. Nightrider WP - f4
2. Queen d8 - BP = CardinalRider
3. Rook a1 - WP = SuperBishop
3. Pawn g7 - g6
4. SuperBishop WP - e5
4. Knight g8 - f6
5. SuperBishop e5 x c7 ??
5. CardinalRider BP - g5
6. Knight g1 - f3
6. CardinalRider g5 x c7...

Despite this outcome, I am afraid that the sole advantage of being White
was bound to give me a quick win. (Peter is not so sure.) The Nightrider
can be dropped on c4, threatening King and Rook, or f4, threatening Queen
and Rook. It is forking a fork, so to say.
So, I think that White should be barred from using the Pocket at his
first move. (Peter agrees with me on this.)

💡📝Michael Nelson wrote on Sat, Sep 13, 2003 04:23 PM UTC:
Antoine raises a good point.  Consider it done. Rule 2 is amended to read:
'If a player's pocket is empty, the player may remove any of his pieces
(except his King) from the board and put it in his pocket as a move. White
may not use the pocket for the first move.'

I will also submit a corrected ZRF when I am able.

💡📝Michael Nelson wrote on Sat, Sep 13, 2003 07:41 PM UTC:
I hav submitted the corrections to the editors. It is a good change in that
reducing White's opening advantage is always a good thing.

However, the original rules do not give White a win.  Black can maintain
equality by symmetrical play. The early loss of one Rook on each side is a
bit of a flaw, though.

In the revised rules, White is safe from the Nightrider attack if he opens
Pawn d2-d4 or Pawn e2-e4. This covers one fork point and he has the tempo
to cover the other if Black mutates a Rook to Nightrider.  Since these are
reasonable opening moves anyway, diffusing the Nightrider threat costs
White little or nothing--this makes for a very balanced game.

Tony Quintanilla wrote on Sun, Sep 14, 2003 02:03 AM UTC:
Updates posted.

Michael Schmahl wrote on Fri, Mar 19, 2004 08:01 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
Is mutuation when pocketing a piece from the eighth rank optional or
mandatory?  For example, White pockets a KnightRider from a8 -- does he
have the option of retaining a KnightRider or is he forced to 'upgrade'
to a Cardinal or SuperRook.  White may find the NR ability too useful to
give up.

What if you added a new Piece, the 'SuperKnightRider', or 'KingRider',
which moves as King or KnightRider?  Would this be approximately the right
strength for a Class 4 Piece?  If you think it is too strong, perhaps a
FerzRider or WazirRider would be better.

Anonymous wrote on Fri, Mar 19, 2004 09:22 PM UTC:
Promotion via mutation is mandatory when pocketing a piece on the eight
rank, excepting the case of the AmazonRider which can be pocketed form
the
eighth rank without promoting since there is no higher rank for it to
promote to. A variant you where promotion is optional also has a great
deal of merit.

Your proposed SuperNightRider would be value class 5.  A Nightrider-Ferz
or Nightrider-Wazir would be class 4, as would a SuperKnight.

J Andrew Lipscomb wrote on Wed, Jun 9, 2004 02:05 AM UTC:Good ★★★★
As far as using different piece sets: the 'eccentric' sets of a lot of variants would be bad choices, but I could see applying these rules to Grand Chess (the Nightrider power seems more workable on the 10x10) or to Chu Shogi with Schmittberger's hierarchy (a piece taken out of the promotion zone would promote either to anything in the next category up, or to its own natural promoted form).

carlos carlos wrote on Thu, Aug 26, 2004 06:46 AM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
is repeated forced check a draw?

💡📝Michael Nelson wrote on Thu, Aug 26, 2004 03:08 PM UTC:
Carlos, 

Yes and No.

FIDE Chess rules apply to Pocket Mutation Chessexcept where otherwise
stated.

Under current FIDE rules, perpetual check is not a draw in and of itself
(it once was), but if you are able to give perpetual check, you can always
force triple repetition or the 50-move rule, both of which are draws. 

Note that Pocket Mutation's 50-move rule is different from FIDE:
promotions and captures reset the move count, but Pawn moves do not.

David Paulowich wrote on Fri, Aug 27, 2004 12:27 PM UTC:
In some endgames the weaker side can sacrifice pieces to achieve a stalemate draw. I just posted a comment to 'Perpetual check explained with animated gif' in 'The rules of chess', citing a game that ended with 21 consecutive Rook checks. The 50-move rule is probably required to actually force an end to that game. <p>I like the value classes! The CardinalRider (Unicorn) and ChancellorRider (Varan) are listed in Abecedarian Big Chess (ABChess) on this site. Back in 1991, G. P. Jelliss called these pieces the Banshee and the Raven.

David Paulowich wrote on Sat, Aug 28, 2004 10:44 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
1. P b2-b3 
1... p d7-d5 
2. R a1-p1; I-p1 // pocket nightrider 
2... b c8-d7 
3. I p1-b2 //  is a PMChess Fool's Mate.  Neat!

This variant has the potential to go beyond excellent. Bringing Class 4 up to four pieces yields 21 different pieces for the game, including the King. And 21, being the product of the magic numbers 3 and 7, makes a traditional choice for a complete set. I suggest adding the SuperAlibaba to Class 4, as its WFAD moves make a nice change from long range pieces.


💡📝Michael Nelson wrote on Sat, Sep 18, 2004 03:48 PM UTC:
I have an idea for Pocket Mutation Demotion Chessgi. It will use the same
pieces and value classes as PM. 

The rules for using the pocket are expanded:

When you capture an enemy pawn, it is removed from the game. If you
capture any other enemy piece, it is demoted to the next lower value
class, mutated to a friendly piece of your choice in that class, and put
in your pocket. This is mandatory even if your pocket is not empty and
will cause the removal of any piece in your pocket from the game. 

Notice how you can't put a strong piece in the pocket and wait around for
a good drop--in effect you can only capture pawns as long a s that strong
piece is there.

Imagine having a Queen in your Pocket and the opponent checks with a
Knight and the only counter is to capture the Knight. At the cost of a
Knight, the enemy has changed your Queen into a pawn!

Nasmichael Farris wrote on Tue, Jan 18, 2005 01:29 AM UTC:Good ★★★★
Intriguing. I have to try it. I am not sure how many opponents I can get to play over-the-board--but I will ask a good one. I am not too fond of the riders, but the fusion idea is pleasant. How do you (collectively) think it would play if the more advanced player (e.g., by more than 200 points) took standard FIDE pieces, and the novice took the Pocket Mutation pieces--or in another vein, that the more advanced player could only choose a more limited number of mutations, decided before gameplay begins.

Greg Strong wrote on Tue, Feb 22, 2005 09:57 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★

This is a very interesting game. I look forward to playing it in GCT #2.

Below is a list of mobility values for all the pieces in Pocket Mutation, as well as a few Chess-With-Different-Armies pieces at the bottom for comparison. The 'average mobility' column is a Betza Mobility Calculation with a magic number of 0.7. This is probably the best estimation of the value of the piece. The second column is the average number of checks this piece delivers on an empty board without being counter-attacked. The third column is the average number of different 'directions' in which this piece attacks. The fourth column is the average number of squares attacked on an empty board.

Average # Directions Attacked Average Empty Board Mobility
Average Mobility Average # Safe Checks
Class Piece
Class 2
Knight 5.25 5.25 5.25 5.25
Bishop 5.93 5.69 3.06 8.75
Class 3
Rook 8.1 10.5 3.5 14
Nightrider 7.96 9.5 5.25 9.5
Super Bishop 9.43 5.69 6.56 12.25
Class 4
Cardinal 11.18 10.94 8.31 14
Super Rook 11.16 10.5 6.56 17.06
Class 5
Queen 14.03 16.19 6.56 22.75
Chancellor 13.35 15.75 8.75 19.25
Cardinal Rider 13.89 15.19 8.31 18.25
Super Cardinal 14.68 10.94 11.81 17.5
Class 6
Chancellor Rider 16.06 20 8.75 23.5
Super Chancellor 16.41 15.75 11.81 22.31
Super Cardinal Rider 17.39 15.19 11.81 21.75
Class 7
Amazon 19.28 21.44 11.81 28
Super Chancellor Rider 19.12 20 11.81 26.56
Class 8
Amazon Rider 21.99 25.69 11.81 32.25
Misc
Fibnif 5.69 2.63 5.69 5.69
Waffle 5.75 2.25 5.75 5.75
Woody Rook 6.5 3 6.5 6.5
Charging Knight 6.78 2.63 6.78 6.78
Short Rook 7.51 7.5 3.5 11
FAD (colorbound) 8.31 5.25 8.31 8.31
Charging Rook 8.48 7.88 5.03 12.91
Half-Duck 8.56 5.5 8.56 8.56
Bede (colorbound) 8.93 8.69 6.06 11.75
Fourfer (FR4) 10.57 7.5 6.56 14.06
Colonel 12.64 10.5 9.19 17.06
N2R4 14.86 15.75 8.75 19.25


Greg Strong wrote on Tue, Feb 22, 2005 10:38 PM UTC:
Yes, exactly right. This appears to be an HTML problem. If you go to the Pocket Mutation Chess page, then you see my comment properly (with the complete names.) On the What's New page, however, the text is giant, so some of the text gets wrapped out of existance. It is lousy HTML exported from Excel, so that's probably part of the problem.

David Howe wrote on Tue, Feb 22, 2005 11:37 PM UTC:
That was part of the problem, but apparently not all of it. I cleaned out the crazy HTML code, but still, the text in the table is coming out larger than the rest of the text. I'm not sure why, but at least you can see all of the text now.

Larry Smith wrote on Wed, Feb 23, 2005 12:40 AM UTC:
Have you tried to specify a FONT SIZE within the table?

💡📝Michael Nelson wrote on Wed, Feb 23, 2005 05:29 AM UTC:
Greg,

Excellent work in doing all the calculations. 

Your figures confirm my designer's intuition that the value classes
(desinged based on Betza's atomic theory of piece values, with no
detailed math) are well-defined and playable. The worst case scenario is a
discrepancy of 1.47 mobility between Nightrider and SuperBishop in class 3.
This is vitually identical to the smallest difference between two pieces of
differnt classes: 1.48 betweenS SuperCardinal (class 5) and ChancellorRider
(class 6). 

However, some hard to quantify but very real values tend to narrow the
former gap and widen the latter: 

The Nightrider is particularly strong in the opening and as a drop
piece--this brings it closer to the SuperBishop which is not particularly
outstanding in either respect (though hardly poor). 

The ChancellorRider has a Rook move, so it has King Interdiction power
(the ability to prevent a King from crossing a rank or file covered by a
Rook move, thus confining it to a restricted area of the board). As the
SuperCardinal does not have King Interdiction power, this gap widens.

David Paulowich wrote on Wed, Feb 23, 2005 08:54 PM UTC:
Michael: The Queen, SuperRook, SuperBishop, and SuperAlibaba pieces all include the commoner(WF) move, which gives them immunity from the enemy King approaching them. They also have the choice of up to three different promotion squares, when sitting on the player's 7th rank. 'Commoner Power' may not be as flashy as 'Nightrider Power', but it has its uses.

David Paulowich wrote on Wed, Feb 23, 2005 09:08 PM UTC:
Greg: back on 2004-08-28 I proposed adding the SuperAlibaba (WFAD) piece to Class 4. Could I trouble you to calculate the stats? Looks like the usual 6.56 for Average # Directions Attacked and 11.69 for Average Empty Board Mobility. <p>NITPICKING MATHEMATICIAN ALERT!!! Your FAD and Half-Duck values of 8.31 and 8.56 for Average # Directions Attacked result from errors (or a different philosophy from mine). Those two pieces have up to 12 moves, but go in the same 8 directions as the SuperAlibaba.

Greg Strong wrote on Wed, Feb 23, 2005 09:30 PM UTC:
Super-alibaba:
average mobility: 11.81
average safe checks: 5.25
average directions attacked: 11.81
average squares attacked: 11.81

Directions attacked:
Yes, I should better define a 'direction'.  By my definition, the four
directions attacked by a rook are different than the four directions
attacked by a dabbabah-rider.  This is intentional because the directions
attacked is a measure of forking power...  The super-alibaba can
theoretically fork 16 different pieces, so it attacks in 16 different
directions.  This definition is also essential because these numbers are
all calculated by ChessV, and ChessV must consider them to be different
directions -- directions are used in generation of moves/captures, and a
piece which blocks a wazir-rider doesn't necessarily block a
dabbabah-rider.

Greg Strong wrote on Wed, Feb 23, 2005 11:17 PM UTC:
OOPS! Please see the updated numbers for the super-alibabba below ... I was doing that on my way out to class, and put up those numbers a little too fast... The comment has been edited to show correct numbers.

Roberto Lavieri wrote on Tue, Apr 19, 2005 02:46 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
This is a very interesting game, far from easy to play in a good manner.
Material advantage should be good, but it is much less important than in
FIDE-Chess. Defensive schemes can be good for a team in a slight
disdvantage, because the superior team, if wants a victory, must attack,
and always some weaknesses can appear, because pieces used in attacks
can´t defend weak positions in many cases. The superior team can´t
construct easely the victory positionally step by step as in FIDE-Chess.
In Chess, the main mennace is the convertibility of the advantage in Pawns
which can promote to Queens, here it is not the case, promotions add a bit
more power, but not enough for a victory in many cases. Openings must be
played carefully, conversions to Nightriders can cause serious damages to
the enemy if he plays with some ingenuity about these pieces. isolated
pieces are not good, and unprotected Kings are worse. Positions must
change dinamically and mantaining reasonable solid structures, don´t stay
with the same structure and pieces types all the time, some structures are
more sensitive to some piece types, and other structures to other pieces.
Every player must try to cover his weak points before attacks, or
counter-attacks can be devasting... I have launched the idea of redefining
the Super Cardinal as a class 6 piece, but it seems there is not consense.
This is not only the most powerful piece in its class, but its power is
almost the same as the class 6 Super-Chancellor. Super-Cardinals can cause
demolishing effects in many ends, due the usual sparsity of the pieces, and
a Queen is not equally comparable with it, because it is not only the
mobility in consideration, but the potential attacks against the enemy
King, considering that this piece can be dropped. Classes 7 and 8 seems to
be unnecessary, in my opinion. I know that many players are not gained with
the idea of re-defining the classes, but I want hear more opinions about
it.

Joe Joyce wrote on Mon, May 9, 2005 07:43 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
This is a truly twisted game, extremely well put together. The pieces and rules create a high tension and a fine, unique dynamic. I particularly enjoy the pawn play. A+; thanks for a great game.

Roberto Lavieri wrote on Tue, May 10, 2005 12:27 AM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
Yes, this game is excellent, as usual Mike Nelson´s standards as games designer. I have to make an (perhaps unexpected) appretiation: I think this game, at high level of play, is not easy for a victory. Played by 'Masters', this game may be at least as drawish than FIDE-Chess. The reason is because promotions don´t add much power, and material advantage is less decisive than in Chess. In Chess, the potential danger of material advantage is its convertibility in Pawns, which can poromote to Queens or other valious pieces if necessary. In PMC, material convertibility is not as strong, and its decisiveness is less clear or slower. But Mastering this game must be much more difficult than mastering Chess, this game is much more rich in possibilities.

Anonymous wrote on Tue, May 10, 2005 03:46 PM UTC:
Thanks to Joe and Roberto for your comments. Roberto's comment about
drawishness is true with regard to a certain type of middlegame--the
complex middlegame where both sides find launching an attack too
dangerous.

The endgame however is not drawish at all--virtually all endgames are
decisive. King vs anything is a win for the stronger side--you just drop,
promote, drop promote until you have enopugh force for a mate. The lone
King can't defend the whole back rank. This being true, many times a
numerical advantage in pieces can be translated into a win (whether or
not
it is a meterial advantage).

An example: often the simplest way to win King, Queen, and Knight vs King
and Rook is to exchange the Queen for the Rook, which is a draw in FIDE.

💡📝Michael Nelson wrote on Tue, May 10, 2005 03:47 PM UTC:
The last comment was mine, I forget to put in my user id.

💡📝Michael Nelson wrote on Mon, Jan 2, 2006 06:41 PM UTC:
I am most honored that Pocket Mutation Chess was selected as the newest
Recognized Chess Variant and the voted Recognized Variant of the Month the
first time out.

Clearly PM is my finest creation but I never imagined it would join such
august company in under three years.

Tony Quintanilla wrote on Mon, Jan 2, 2006 07:07 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
Well deserved, Mike. Congratulations!

Abdul-Rahman Sibahi wrote on Mon, Jan 1, 2007 06:47 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
SuperKnight and SuperNightRider should be added to the main list in classes 4 and 5 respectively. It is a sensible expansion omitted for who-knows-why reasons!! Addition of Cylindrical and Toroidal pieces can be nasty !! (The rook will only upgrade by a class or half a class.. but bishops and knight and nightriders and super pieces can jump two or three classes, that's for cylinderical.)

Jeremy Good wrote on Mon, Jan 15, 2007 10:21 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★

One of the best variants, certainly and Michael Nelson, I think, is also one of the best variant designers.

I would like to see an expanded (more complete) list of pieces added to the classes.

Also, maybe an extension for some of the more powerful pieces, as with tripunch pieces and cylindrical / toroidal pieces? Would be fun to have classes 9 and even 10.

Abdul, can you please tell me what you mean by superknight and supernightrider?

Just want to know.


Abdul-Rahman Sibahi wrote on Tue, Jan 16, 2007 05:53 AM UTC:
They're mentioned earlier in the comments. the SuperKnight is knight+king .. SuperNightrider is nightrider+king. I would also add wazir and ferz combinations.

Greg Strong wrote on Wed, Jan 17, 2007 10:59 AM UTC:
Yes, definitely a great game - (I won't rate it here, because I've
already provided an excellent rating previously.)

I am not sure that it is a good idea to add more pieces, though.  Going
too far in that direction sacrafices strategy for tactics, with a player
looking through all the pieces for the one that attacks just the right
combination of squares.  Then one would have to pay very defencively,
always keeping all pieces protected, lest he open himself up to a viscious
fork by some strange piece, like a knight+alfilrider...

Jeremy Good wrote on Wed, Jan 17, 2007 02:45 PM UTC:

Yes, maybe expanding the piece types (and classes) would allow tactics to overwhelm strategy.

Your discussion suggests an idea to me, which may characterize either this variant or one similar to it. It is the idea of the wizard's duel, like the one Merlin had against Madam Mim in the movie Sword in the Stone, where they change into different animals, each appropriate to do combat against the other.

Note: Michael Nelson also invented an excellent variant called Wizard's War as it so happens. It doesn't increase greatly the kind of pieces and the wizards aren't themselves chameleons, but they are interesting generator pieces.


David Paulowich wrote on Wed, Jan 17, 2007 03:45 PM UTC:
The SuperAlibaba (WFAD) and the SuperKnight (WFN) are interesting short range pieces that should fit in Class 4. Perhaps one of these would be enough, and another long range piece could be chosen to increase Class 4 to four pieces, matching Class 5. I proposed something like this back on 2004-08-28.

Jeremy Good wrote on Tue, Jul 24, 2007 12:28 PM UTC:
I've been playing a lot of Pocket Mutation Chess games and I have concluded that a nightrider is worth so much more than a rook in this game because of its greater ability to traverse to the eighth rank where it can then promote. So I would favor moving the nightrider to Class 4. Or, possibly even to Class 5 (!) and move the nightrider compounds into Class 6. [Added note: It may seem preposterous to think a nightrider could be equal to a queen, but in this game, access to the 8th rank is such a critical factor and the nightrider may have equal chances of getting to the 8th rank.] I would move the Nightrider compounds into Class 6 regardless. [Added note: And push all the other nightrider compounds to the next class over]

David Paulowich wrote on Wed, Jul 25, 2007 01:59 PM UTC:

At various times Joe Joyce, Greg Strong and myself have stated that it may be unwise to start the game by pocketing a Rook and changing it to Nightrider. As Greg once pointed out, the Nightrider is most powerful when you are holding it in the pocket, but this means that you cannot use the pocket for any other purpose while you are waiting.

Also, I am a big fan of the SuperBishop (Dragon Horse), which is the most powerful [Class 3] piece in 'normal' chessvariants, that do not allow dropping pieces. See this game - 287 days ago for a Nightrider and a SuperBishop working together to win the game. On the other hand, in [Class 5] I prefer the CardinalRider (Unicorn) to the SuperCardinal (which Roberto Lavieri praises in his 2005-04-19 comment). We are a long way from reaching a concensus on piece values in this excellent game.


Jeremy Good wrote on Wed, Jul 25, 2007 02:16 PM UTC:
I think Greg Strong's point of view about the nightrider has changed 180 degrees since then after some playtesting with me.

David Paulowich wrote on Wed, Jul 25, 2007 11:19 PM UTC:
Even in FIDE Chess, I like to play 1.d4 and 2.e3 with the White pieces. 
In PMChess I may also pocket the Bishop on (c1), changing it to a Knight. 
My style of play does not leave many holes for Nightriders to exploit.

💡📝Michael Nelson wrote on Thu, Jul 26, 2007 05:44 PM UTC:
I'm working on a couple of additional piece sets for PM. One is part of the Short Range Project and the other eliminates Nightriders and provides additional enhancements. In both cases I expect a more strategic, less explosive game.

I am in no way dissatisfied with the classic piece set, I just think providing some alternatives will be interesting for players who like the game concept but would prefer a different feel.

When I have them worked up I will amend the game page and submit a new ZRF.

Jeremy Good wrote on Thu, Jul 26, 2007 08:43 PM UTC:
Hi, Michael.

I'm very excited to know that you plan to do more work on Pocket Mutation Chess.

I love Pocket Mutation Chess very much and the 'Excellent' rating I gave it earlier still holds for me. I'm in no way disillusioned. I would really like to see an expanded piece set, rather than alternate piece sets. Joe Joyce believes (and he's obviously quite right) that many short range pieces can compete well against the longer range ones. As evidence, he proffers 'Shatranjian Shooters' CDA and even has a hard time paring down the short range pieces enough to be soft enough to compete against the FIDEs. In other words, short range pieces can compete very effectively against rider pieces. Those who favor short range pieces can enjoy playing against those who favor longer range ones.

I see that you're already committed to a project but I also have talked about wanting to work on a version of Pocket Mutation Chess variant, recently on the chessvariants yahoogroup. This was in response to an email written by Joe Joyce in which he says that Pocket Mutation Chess is his 'favorite chess variant.' Joe there describes it beautifully as a 'fantasy variant' of 'Chess with Changing Armies.'

I propose having more classes, including one or two below (!) pawn (e.g., spacious wazir and lame dabbabas -- of course to be able to put such pieces on the board, you would have to start with one or two very weak ones) and two or three above Amazonrider.

Also, I favor having more pieces in each class, at least five per class. For example: In class 1, there are at least a few more types of pawns you could have, the most obvious ones that come to mind are chinese pawns and berolina pawns.

Thinking it over, I would really like to see nightriders put into Class 4. Then, a nightrider could only come on the board after a Class 3 piece gets to the eighth rank. Being able to pocket your rooks and change them into nightriders immediately really forces your opposing player to protect their bishop five squares (c5, f5 for white, c4, f4 for black).

Likewise, I would shift Cardinalrider into Class 6 (othwerwise queen could immediately turn into cardinalrider), therefore Chancellorrider and Supercardinalrider into Class 7, etc.

There might even be some classes of pieces subtly different enough to fit in between some of the classes you have already.

Obviously this is a variant where the relative values of the pieces matters tremendously. And therein lies much of its appeal because the relative values of pieces is already of paramount importance to any true chess enthusiast.

Michael, email me, please, if you're interested in discussing these things with me more. (I hope you will.)


Andreas Kaufmann wrote on Wed, Aug 8, 2007 08:00 PM UTC:
I agree with Jeremy that nightrider is more valuable than rook in this
game. May be its value is somewhere between rook and cardinal:
* rook - 5 pawns
* nightrider - 6 pawns
* cardinal - 7 pawns.
So, moving all nightrider-combined pieces one class up will probably
improve this game. In any case, this will avoid that most of the game
start with rook->nightrider pocketing as of now. Certainly, some
play-testing is needed to see if really there are situations where you
will prefer nightrider over cardinal.

Other possible alternatives:
1) Add a new piece class between classes 3 and 4 and move nightrider and 
SuperRook there. 
2) Remove nightrider-combined pieces completely to simplify the game and
make it more strategic.

Jeremy Good wrote on Thu, Aug 9, 2007 02:36 PM UTC:
I'm very interested in Andreas's most intriguing suggestion that a class might exist between what are currently classes three and four and his idea that a nightrider in this game may be worth a pawn more than a rook but a pawn less than a cardinal. I agree that this should be investigated further. Of course, the relative desirability of cardinal to nightrider in this game hinges in large part on their abilities to promote.

Joe Joyce wrote on Thu, Aug 9, 2007 03:16 PM UTC:
I think this is an excellent game as is, although I am eager to see Mike's new piece sets. [Great to see you back, Mike!] This is also such an excellent game concept that's it's almost impossible to resist speculating about different pieces and piece sets; 'Alternate Pockets' can easily become as varied as Betza's Different Armies, in its own twisted way. And I suspect the 'Mutant Armies' can be at least as difficult to balance as the Different Armies. But I'm sure some of us can have fun trying.

On the nightrider vs rook question, what are the weaknesses of pocketing the opposing rook's pawn after a rook is pocketed and mutated to NN? This threatens RxP, then R-R8 on a following move. The rook is not a bad piece in PM, it pins pieces and projects power along a line very well. The nightrider has a different job, leaping around, forking pieces, and generally making a nuisance of itself. But, a player can do a pretty fair job of covering the back few rows against knight attacks well into midgame, no? If that's so, then the NN 'avantage' is gone from the early game. What's so overwhelming about the NN that it is necessary to change a rook to one?

Andreas Kaufmann wrote on Sat, Aug 11, 2007 09:42 PM UTC:
Just try a game with Jeremy (chose white and DON'T make rook->'nightrider in pocket' move early in the game) and you will see for yourself... Still, I think the game is balanced since white can prevent early forks by black nightrider and have time to pocket nightrider from rook as well. The only problem with this game is a lack of variety in the opening, since the majority of the game starts with pocketing nightrider.

David Paulowich wrote on Sat, Aug 11, 2007 11:24 PM UTC:

We still have 7 games of Pocket Mutation Chess scheduled in Game Courier Tournament #3. These should answer some questions.


Jeremy Good wrote on Sun, Aug 12, 2007 11:37 AM UTC:
Well, pocketing rooks and turning them into nightriders doesn't necessarily give one side an advantage. Mike Nelson wrote in the rules that white can't be the first to pocket a piece. I believe pocketing a rook and turning it into a nightrider may give Black an elegant means of overcoming White's first move advantage by fighting for the center. White must cover the c5 and f5 squares to prevent fork on rook and queen or fork on rook and king. This allows Black to vie for the center immediately by contesting the e4 or d4 pawns. There are other approaches possible some of which Oleg and I have been exploring. For example, one can fianchetto one's bishops as a way of preventing these forks... Pocket Mutation Chess as is has its charms and strengths. It can entail its own set of forcing moves but that doesn't necessarily make the openings inferior to standard FIDE. If anything, I'd suggest the openings are likely superior since they seem to entail more balancing opportunities for Black.

George Duke wrote on Fri, Nov 16, 2007 06:15 PM UTC:Poor ★
Having played Pocket Mutation several times within Game Courier, I consider it very Poor. Pocket Mutation would get no following outside of CVPage-type insiders mostly adhering to prolificism(coined word). We realize of course Pocket Mutation is one of the couple most played games(What, 30 game scores? 50?) and voted into Game Courier Tournament #3 presently being played out. However, the dynamics of going back and forth to reach rank 8(1) over and over, in order to promote and re-promote to the next level, I have repeatedly found really, really inferior even pathetic. Not to mention the accumulating number of piece-types horrendous to keep track of, cutting into planning. One of CVPage's very worst in playability.

Matthew Kyle wrote on Thu, Aug 14, 2008 04:26 AM UTC:Good ★★★★
This would be a great game to play, but having all of those nightrider blends is too complicated. Otherwise, is there a set number of turns that a piece must stay in the pocket to be mutated?

💡📝Michael Nelson wrote on Mon, Sep 15, 2008 10:56 PM UTC:
If a piece is to be mutated, this must be done on the same turn as it is pocketed. Thereafter, the piece may remain in the pocket as long as desired.

John Smith wrote on Mon, Dec 29, 2008 06:27 PM UTC:Poor ★
There's too much promotion!

Joe Joyce wrote on Mon, Dec 29, 2008 07:20 PM UTC:
Promotion takes 2 turns in this game. How would you do it differently? I once won a game by not promoting a rook, but keeping it on the back rank, pinning a piece that would have been unpinned had I tried to promote. Pocket Mutation is an awesome game, certainly one of the best CVs ever made. Don't let those promotion possibilities fool you, it's a very difficult game that does not degenerate into races to the top - who can afford to lose so many tempi?

John Smith wrote on Mon, Dec 29, 2008 09:17 PM UTC:
Even if you cannot afford to lose tempi, I think it would be a better game if it wasn't better named as Pocket PROMOTION Chess.

Jeremy Good wrote on Sun, May 24, 2009 08:16 AM UTC:

Joe, I don't know where you're going with that. Don't you gain as many tempi by being able to drop the piece where ever you want? Knights are notoriously difficult to move to the place you want them to go and bishops can't change colors unless you drop them. I have enjoyed converting my rooks to nightriders early in this game and certainly it's much faster than the ordinary way of developing rooks (which in this game is not easy regardless because you can't castle). If you were able to promote automatically but give up the drop option, you'd give up as many tempi as you were gaining.

You could play this game Shogi style and make it a more conservative game, only allowing pieces you capture to be returned to the board as different pieces of the same class.

Joe, I read your remark out of context and see you were likely only trying to engage in dialogue and didn't necessarily have an alternate idea in mind. I will now proceed to get into that dialogue myself:

Having read John Smith's other comment here, I think he misapprehends the intent of this game which is to do precisely as he proposes. It's more a matter of conversion (mutation) than promotion since one is supposedly trading in for a piece of equal value. Hence, the name is appropriate and, I think, also likeable. I urge you, John, to reassess the game after playtesting it. I have criticized others for rating games 'poor' without ever trying them. In some cases it's possible to do so, but rarely. I also don't think it's good practice for book reviewers or movie reviewers to rate books or movies without reading / watching them. Of course anything starring (certain actors I don't like) gets a turkey from me and isn't worth seeing, hehe. In this case, not only has John Smith judged a book by its cover, he has misread the cover.


Jeremy Good wrote on Sun, May 24, 2009 03:47 PM UTC:
There are some fun games where pieces mutate each time they move or each time they land on a certain type of square.

John Smith wrote on Mon, May 25, 2009 12:49 AM UTC:
If it is indeed promotion, than I shall change my rating. I've changed my last comment, seeing that there is more mutation than promotion, but contend that the ability of promotion is far too great, overpowering the mutation, and I do not think piece changing without movement should be such an integral part of gameplay. The strength of these pieces is also ridiculous, especially considering the frequent drops.

Amazons are bad, Amazonriders are terrible, and dropping them is just unheard of. There is a certain Eastern principle of balance that makes games like Shogi playable.

Jeremy Good wrote on Mon, May 25, 2009 10:52 AM UTC:
John, okay, thanks for your further comments. Seems to me you're saying you might consider revising your rating? Frankly, I displayed my own rustiness in my last comment because I forgot about the promotion aspect of the game. For that I apologize. Naturally, it would appear to foreshorten things, add more tactical complexity.

Another angle is that I believe it's somewhat a myth that overpowered pieces have no place on an 8 x 8 board and I believe anyone who enjoys FIDE Chess can also enjoy Tripunch chess (for example), but that is indeed a matter of speculation, and here we are getting into an area of subjective aesthetics where people can legitimately disagree.


Joe Joyce wrote on Tue, May 26, 2009 02:00 AM UTC:
Hey Jeremy [welcome back], I was talking about promotion, I believe - it takes 2 turns for promotion vs 1 turn, so you do lose a tempo there. As for the general strategy, I tended to oppose creating a nightrider early on, because I found the rook more useful in general. But the pocket is useful in a number of ways. Using it for pawns is a nice tactic. While pawns can't mutate, they make excellent paratroopers, and sometimes they can promote [to knights, generally, as 1 knight is a bit more useful than 1 bishop in an unknown future situation.] It's been a couple years since I played this, but I found it a truly excellent game, and highly recommend it to anyone who enjoys playing CVs. I find it to be obviously one of the very best variants ever designed, and richly deserving of recognized status.

Jeremy Good wrote on Sat, Jun 6, 2009 04:22 PM UTC:
Put aside the issue of whether every pawn is protected. In Pocket Mutation Chess, the fact that the rooks are initially unprotected can lead to some forcing lines in the opening that don't necessarily enhance the overall game play.

Jeremy Good wrote on Thu, Jul 9, 2009 01:58 PM UTC:
Why the no castling rule?

Johnny Luken wrote on Thu, May 7, 2015 01:44 PM UTC:Average ★★★
I would have to extend my criticism of Crazyhouse to this game, and echo Mr Dukes sentiments.

While I like the concept, I don't think its an actually good game.

My proposed amendment of the drop in rule (pieces are played in with non capture from the spot they were captured) likely brings an improvement here as well.

Non immediate promotion is also unsatisfactory; why not allow pieces to promote immediately on rotationally symmetric opposite squares?

To me these are the most logical ways of importing Shogis mechanics into the more energetic game of FIDE.

💡📝Michael Nelson wrote on Tue, Jan 5, 2016 11:42 PM UTC:
I am playtesting the following changes to the Pocket Mutation Chess value classes:

Class 1: Pawn

Class 2: Knight, Bishop

Class 3: Rook, Nightrider

Class 4: SuperRook, SuperBishop*

Class 5: Queen, Chancellor, Cardinal*

Class 6: SuperChancellor, ChancellorRider, SuperCardinal*, CardinalRider*

Class 7: Amazon, SuperChancellorider, SuperCardinalRider*

class 8: AmazonRider

Those pieces marked with * have been move up one class.

I have been motivated by H. G. Muller's research which shows a higher value for the Cardinal than Betza's Atomic Theory would predict--it is essentially equal to a Chancellor or Queen, rather that about halfway between a Chancellor and a Rook as Betza suggested.

I am contemplating adding a SuperKnight (KN, class 4?) and maybe a SuperNightrider (KNN, class 6?). Any thoughts?

H. G. Muller wrote on Wed, Jan 6, 2016 12:32 PM UTC:
The 'SuperRook' is significantly stronger than the 'SuperBishop'. The latter is barely stronger than Rook on 8x8, and would fit well in the same class. <p> The SuperKnight gains 8 move targets on the ordinary Knight, where Rook and Bishop only gain 4 moves in the Super version. That boosts it to the level of at least a SuperRook. But the combination of Knight and King moves seems to be a particularly fruitful one, so its really on the high side of the SuperRook class.

💡📝Michael Nelson wrote on Thu, Jan 7, 2016 09:31 AM UTC:
Thanks, H. G.

I will try promoting only the Cardinal and related pieces by one class, returning the SuperBishop to class 3, and adding the SuperKnight to class 4. Hopefully, its value is close enough to the SuperRook to be playable--exactness is not required, just as long as it is a fair amount closer in value to the SuperRook than to the Cardinal, Chancellor, or Queen. 

It is an important design goal of mine to have more than one piece in every value class except 1 and 8 (and I wouldn't object to additional pieces in these classes, if any come to mind). Any addition piece suggestions are welcome if there are good numbers available about their values.

Kevin Pacey wrote on Sat, Aug 26, 2017 07:51 AM UTC:

I'm wondering if there's a chance that there might be [coming] a second, different, rules enforcing Game Courier preset for this game, with the other [original] rules enforcing preset to be for the games played by the original rules, before the Superknight and other changes, spelled out by the inventor in the comments section, were to be introduced. That's presumably with the rules section for the/a more modern rules enforcing preset showing the latest rules for the various classes of piece types.

This variant looks like a great one (perhaps regardless of the proposed/enacted rule changes as given in the comments section), but I was kind of dismayed that (big) rule changes were made to it after so many games of it had already been played by the original rules - the games making for a lot of study material that now may not be so relavent. I once played over a log of a game of this variant after the proposed rule changes started to take effect, and after apparently being surprised by a consequence of the latest rules, one of the players apparently abandoned the game at once, losing on time.


Greg Strong wrote on Sat, Aug 26, 2017 12:37 PM UTC:

I don't believe the preset does use the rule changes from the comments.  Actually, I'm not sure any games have been played with the new rules.


Kevin Pacey wrote on Sat, Aug 26, 2017 06:20 PM UTC:

Maybe a systemic bug for Comments to report: when I clicked on "All Comments" for a Pocket Mutation Chess comment, all I see is a list of 'earlier' comments' that don't include, e.g., the latest ones by Greg and myself. Note if I go to the Pocket Mutation Chess webpage instead, I can see the comments made by Greg and myself.


🕸Fergus Duniho wrote on Sat, Aug 26, 2017 07:54 PM UTC:

I corrected the link to show comments in descending order. You were seeing them in ascending order, which started with the earliest comments. You would have found your comments by paging through the comments to the end.


Kevin Pacey wrote on Sat, Aug 26, 2017 10:26 PM UTC:

@ Greg:

It's possible my memory failed me regarding viewing that someone once made a move (in a finished game log, apparently with the use of a non-rules enforcing preset) by using one of the inventor's ideas for rule changes regarding piece type classification (& adding in the Superknight). Presumably the existing rules enforcing preset would use the still (officially unaltered!?) original rules for the game.

Anyone who wishes to use the suggested new Superknight etc. rules ought to use the non-rules enforcing preset, and tell their opponent that they wish to play with the suggested new rules before the game with a non-rules enforcing preset is underway (it might even be good to verify with the opponent that the original rules are desired to be used, to err on the side of caution).


Kevin Pacey wrote on Tue, Oct 3, 2017 01:47 AM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★

Excellent concept. One can quibble about the class certain pieces ought to be in, and the extra basic rules are slightly complex, but cool variant.

My tentative estimates for the piece values of this variant are: Class 1: P=1; Class 2: N=3.5, B=3.5; Class 3: R=5.5, NN=5.75, SB=6; Class 4: C=7.5, SR=8; Class 5: Q=10, M=10, SC=10, CC=10.25; Class 6: MM=12.25, SM=12.5, SCC=12.75; Class 7: A=14.5, SMM=14.75; Class 8: AA=16.75. Note that I tend to agree with various world class chess players who historically gave the fighting value of K=4 for on an 8x8 board. I also tend to agree with chess authorities who in the past valued a B microscopically better than a N on average, so perhaps a better value for a N (or the N component portion of any of the appropriate compound pieces listed above) might be, say, 3.49, to reflect this belief, though I prefer not to use ugly fractions when thinking of most piece exchange value calculations that might arise.


George Duke wrote on Tue, Oct 3, 2017 02:10 AM UTC:

11.November.07 here, exactly ten years ago,  I rated Pocket Mutation having played it twice in G. C.  It was described as below

poor, worse than poor then, so let's upgrade it to Poor now.  This type of CV of too much complexity in implementation is total waste of time. I like the streamlined one-idea concepts like top CV of the nineties decade Hostage Chess. Yet ironic  that

Hostage is hardly ever played.


Aurelian Florea wrote on Sat, Mar 24, 2018 05:51 PM UTC:

There are some spelling errors in this article.

Under rules the 4th and 5th subsections, "eighth" is wrongly spelled "eight".


Greg Strong wrote on Sun, Mar 25, 2018 01:21 AM UTC:

Fixed.


Anthony Viens wrote on Thu, Nov 29, 2018 12:15 AM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★

One of the very best variant on the site!

Truly beautiful concept, and it appears to work.  (I have not had an opportunity to try it myself, yet.)

Reading through the comments, much of the complaints seem to focus on the power of the knightrider's ability to reach the back row and promote.  I wonder if anyone has considered that the knightrider move and the promotion rules may not work together perfectly?  Changing them would result in a different game, but possibly a better one.  Just a thought.


Greg Strong wrote on Fri, Nov 30, 2018 01:42 AM UTC:

It is a great game.

To the extent it has a "problem" (which is debatable), the problem isn't knightrider's the ability to reach the back row and promote.  It is the ability of black to immediately pocket a knightrider and immediately threaten white with multiple back-row forks.  The opening array is well protected in normal chess because chess doesn't have knightriders, but it is very vulnerable to them.  White can protect himself but must do so immediately and correctly, which is annoying.  That said, I think immediately pocketing a knightrider is a bad move.  If white does play it correctly, he's in a stronger position.  And a knightrider is worth at least a tiny bit less than a rook whereas the other class 3 piece, the super bishop, is slight stronger than a rook.  If you're pocketing a rook into a knightrider in the opening you are basically gambling that your opponent messes up and preparing to take advantage of it.  But you are putting yourself at a disadvantage in terms of development if he doesn't.

The only thing I find strange about the game is the fact that castling is disallowed.  That just feels odd.


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