Comments/Ratings for a Single Item

'I would think that it would be the CVP's duty to include in-depth
coverage.'

The CVP is not a person and has no duties. Nor do those of us who maintain
this site have any duty to provide any coverage of this game. My objection
is to the notion of duty. We may have an interest in covering it. It might
be desirable to cover it. We may even have an editor who will be willing
and able to cover it. But it is not our duty to cover it.

Oh, and Jared, I hope you don't have any contrary opinions of your own.
Otherwise, I may have to authoritatively oppress them out of you.

I played a demo of this game at Origins in Columbus, OH this past weekend
and it's incredible! There have been many variants to standard chess in
recent years, but this one creates an entirely new GAME, with HUGE
strategic depth, that could definitely become a staple game if it's
promoted correctly. 

With 3 ways to win, it's definitely going to challenge chess enthusiasts
but is still fun for the casual player. Once you start playing this game,
it's possible that you might not want to ever play standard chess again.


I'm going to be analyzing this game until it comes out on August 14.

Michael,

Click on Jared's name for the antecedent.

Jared,

I think you need to work on improving your oppressed, anti-authoritarian
attitude, and you need to let people express opinions that are different
from yours without crying false alarms of oppression and authoritarianism.
There is no oppression or authoritarianism in expressing opinions and
giving reasons for them. I am a firm believer in the principles expressed
in John Stuart Mill's essay 'On Liberty'
(http://www.constitution.org/jsm/liberty.txt) I believe in both allowing
and exercising free speech for the sake of getting at the truth, and I
never tell someone to shut up just because I disagree with him. That would
be oppressive and authoritarian.

Um, can we please all voluntarily choose to limit our statements to
comments that apply to the item in question? Not a demand, just a
personal
request as a favor.

From the positive responses of Gary, Jared and others, I can see that
there will exist a demand to play this one by e-mail.

I had another idea. What if booster packs in a future expansion were to
come with collectable board sections? Some could have various
arrangements
of squares, some could have impassable squares, and so forth. Each player
could than bring his half of the board to the game.

That's why there need to be rules for team-building. Personally, when
playing this game I intend to ask my opponent to agree on teams of a
comparable strength level, or a handicap which I consider reasonable for
our skills. I would not agree to play until Maseitai had been chosen
which
would result in an interesting game.

Keep in mind I am not a purist. I like the appearance of the toys (yes,
they are toys and I will call them that) better than the minimalistic
abstract pieces or ugly computer icons typical of chess variants. These
are characters with personalities and stories, not geometric patterns.

Purists who enjoy the perfect determinism, perfect information, elegant
simplicity and predictable objective value systems to study in chess will
surely roll their eyes at the magical powers, because it throws these
factors into a cocked hat. I enjoy those factors as much as the next
chess
variant enthusiast, but I also find Navia Dratp's wild unpredictability
exciting. In collectable games, every season the company releases new
pieces that throw the existing game analysis out the window.

And let's not forget, one of the most important factors about a game is
finding somebody who's willing to play it with you. A collectable craze
will generate publicity for chess variants in general, where it is most
important, among the next generation in their formative years. That can
only result in benefit to this hobby.

[[I like the appearance of the toys (yes, they are toys and I will call
them that) better than the minimalistic abstract pieces or ugly computer
icons typical of chess variants.]]

Give me elegant abstract geometrics over garish toys every time.  I
strongly disagree that the graphics typical of chess variants, especially
many found on this site, are 'ugly'.

<[[I also find Navia Dratp's wild unpredictability exciting.]]

I find wild unpredictablity to be a bad thing for a strategy game.

[[A collectable craze will generate publicity for chess variants in
general, where it is most important, among the next generation in their
formative years. That can only result in benefit to this hobby.]]

I seriously doubt that the kids who take to the toyishness,
collectability, and wildness of Navia Dratp will ever be interested in
going 'back' to pure chess variants.

Sorry, but I just can't generate any enthusiasm for this game.

If Magic the Gathering could catch on, maybe this game has a chance. But
I'm going to remain skeptical until I see it catch on. Magic has some
marketing advantages in its favor. First of all, Magic the Gathering is a
really cool and meaningful name, whereas Navia Dratp is an ugly,
meaningless name. Now maybe it will catch on despite that. Yu-gi-oh! is a
stupid name, yet it has enjoyed some popularity. The other problem I see
with this game catching on is that collectible pieces are going to cost
much more than collectible cards. But, since I collected Star Wars action
figures as a kid, maybe that won't be that big a hurdle. However, I think
a Saturday morning cartoon show is what this game will need to really catch
on in popularity.

The piece shown in the photo is pretty, but it also looks like something
most little boys wouldn't be caught dead with. Little boys normally
prefer something more masculine than a cute little fairy. Including scary
monsters would probably make the game more appealing to that demographic.
And, considering that Chess variants seem much more popular among males
than females, for nearly everyone at this site is male, it's going to be
important to reach a male audience with this game.

As for pieces such as these vs. more abstract pieces, I am a strong
supporter of abstraction in piece design. For me, one of the things that
helps make a game more playable is being able to tell the difference
between different pieces at a glance. I can easily do this with a Staunton
set, with my own Abstract set, and with some of the more abstract sets
I've found in Chess programs (such as Futura in Checkmate! or Art Deco in
Chessmaster 6000). But when I've played Chess with humaniform figurine
pieces, or 3D images of such in a computerized Chess game, it has been
easier for me to confuse pieces.

An ugly, meaningless name was not a problem for Yu-Gi-Oh, an anime-themed
franchise which is wildly profitable and popular in both its card and
miniatures collectable forms. I myself and countless kids and adults I
know collect Wiz Kids click-dial miniatures which are just as expensive as
Navia Dratp, and it too is financially successful beyond any wildest
dreams. If you know anything about Japanese naming their products, just be
grateful it isn't worse. Japan has a beverage named 'Bacardi Sweat.'

I agree that ABC chess, Nova chess and Pick-a-Team chess are intrinsically
better games than ND. Vastly so. But by the standard of intrinsic objective
superiority, the Klingon language is inferior to the artificially
constructed language Lojban. But it's exponentially more widely spoken
than Lojban, because of Star Trek. This is the same kind of 'unfair'
reason that ND will be more popular than its superiors.

BUT... unlike many other Lojban supporters, I support Klingon just because
at least it exposes people to the hobby of artificial languages. I suggest
we take the same attitude here: at least ND is a chess variant. People who
Bandai markets to are unlikely to even find out about superior chess
without ND as a gateway drug. It can never in a million years take away
the fan base of people who would care about serious chess variants and add
them to the ranks of toy collectors. Think of it as taking a bit of the
gigantic target market of collectors and adding a few of them to the ranks
of chess variant enthusiasts.

Therefore for ND to be 'bad' or 'good' depends on what you want out of
it. The perfect chess, no. Good for our hobby, yes. You don't have to like
it or play it to be glad it's there.

When I was younger I fell for the 'collectible' game series.  I was into
Doomtrooper and Imajica cards.  I spent a lot of my hard-earned cash
attempting to 'collect' these entire series, buying boxes and boxes of
cards.

But these companies enjoyed torturing me, keeping my goal just beyond my
reach.  Doomtrooper increased its volume with the seemingly un-ending
introduction of expansion sets.  Imajica went out of print long before I
could even hope to obtain my goal.

I have shoe boxes filled with these cards, carefully filed and catalogued.
 Not being used or enjoyed, just taking up space in my closet.  And filled
primarily with un-godly numbers of the dreaded common cards.

Now I'm not saying that this game will have the same result.  I will just
be leery of investment into something that I cannot obtain in its entire.

Will the company offer the entire series as a set? or will they dole out
these 'pieces', forcing us to buy endless numbers of the same pieces in
order to obtain that one good piece.  If the latter, I have absolutely no
intention of even considering purchasing a single part of the game.

First of all, Magic the Gathering has caught on -- you just need to know
where to look for it.  I see MTG players all the time at our local
community college, as an example.

One of the things I keep seeing in this discussion is the lack, at
present, of team-building rules.  I would like to point out that most CCGs
have no such rules, except those like disallowing too many of one card in a
deck (and I would assume that this would eventually get a rule like that at
some point).  The reason for this is that there is a counterbalance to
power and usefulness, that counterbalance being the rarity (and
eventually, street cash value) of said cards.  (There is often another
counterbalance, too: the cost to utilize rarer and more powerful things. 
When playing Yu-Gi-Oh, for example, you can't play strong monster cards
without either sacrificing weaker ones or obtaining a bunch of cards to
'fuse' together.  This kind of counterbalance is already in Navia Dratp
in promotion powers.)

My two cents on the anthromorphic-style pieces, as opposed to abstract
stuff:  It's possible to create a set of pieces which are quite easy to
distinguish from each other.  Look at Battle Chess, for instance. 
Besides, I don't really see how you could get different pieces in Navia
Dratp easily confused, since they all have that little descriptive disc on
them.

Finally, I hope that this game doesn't get a Saturday morning cartoon (or
any other morning, for that matter) because when anything gets its own
cartoon, it turns into a game that most older players 'wouldn't be
caught dead with.'

It pertains to the discussion because he is trying to tell everyone who has
dismissed any part of it, since it isn't necessarily the entire ruleset of
a game which makes people dislike it -- sometimes a seemingly minor issue
can cause someone to dislike an otherwise good game.

I would like to know whether Matt Arnold is actually an inventor of this
game, as its entry states.  I know he did invent the four-handed
variation, but I thought that was pretty much it.

Jared,
all I came up with was the four-player rules. I was just as surprised as
you that I was attributed on the page. ND 4-hand is a speculative
unauthorized rule change that has never been played yet and is not
associated in any way with Bandai.
It's based on Hannibal, a 3-hand 3D chess totally of my own invention,
which my local abstract group has playtested. They say I'm really on to
something with that game.

Fergus,
I agree that you have expressed only skepticism and not complete
dismissal. And, the responses here so far have been mostly positive. But
you are wrong that no one has gone so far as to completely dismiss the
game. Michael just got done saying in his last post that the benefit to
the CV field is unlikely to exceed the harm. An anonymous commentor said,
and I quote, 'Sorry, but I just can't generate any enthusiasm for this
game.' I respect these valid opinions and consider them worthy of a
thoughtful response. This is a very enjoyable discussion. I myself have
pointed out serious needs for improvement. In a well-rounded view, by no
means is ND for everybody. I'm excited about it because it fuses my
pre-existing interests in both CV and collectable miniatures.

A few of the objections have not made sense. For example, does the need
to
own exactly the components that one desires make this a sinister game
with
an immoral concept? Where does that come from? In a collectable game each
miniature is its own independent product. They're designed to be a game
construction set in which any combination of miniatures is fun. I can
think of several Mechwarriors I'd like to own, but a battle isn't
impoverished for their absence. Exchanging them with other players has
also been fun, since it's a social experience.

Matt,

You might want to consider getting a userid that will allow you to post
here without waiting for an editor to okay your messages. It's free, and
it will also give you the ability to edit your messages after posting
them.

I think Larry was complaining about a marketing ploy for getting people to
buy more than they need. It's commonly done with cards. You buy a packet
of trading cards without knowing what's in it and hope you get some new
ones. But it seems less likely to me that this would be done with
figurines. I imagine that Navia Dratp will include some starter sets and
booster sets, but I doubt that they will be selling their figurines in
mystery grab bags. With the higher prices of figurines, I expect that
would be a bad marketing ploy. It seems more likely to me that most
figurines will be sold individually like action figures.

As for myself, I don't expect to buy the game at all. This is partly
because I'm poor, and this game is just an extravagant luxury item to me.
Also, I have never been into collectible games, perhaps because they were
never a fad when I was a kid. The first collectible game I ever heard of
was Magic the Gathering, and I never heard of it until I was in graduate
school. And I've still never played it. The only collectible game I ever
played was Pokemon, which I played once with a much younger cousin who was
into the game. I somehow won without really understanding the rules, and I
know I won only because that's what my cousin told me. When I was in high
school, the really big thing in gaming was Advanced Dungeons & Dragons. I
remember remarking once that I had spent around $200.00 on this game. It
was like a collectible game in that you would buy it in components, but it
wasn't the same thing. I would describe it as a modular game, not a
collectible game. The main things to buy for the game were rulebooks,
modules, and dice. You could buy figurines for it too, but I never did. I
was still in high school the last time I played AD&D, and I eventually
sold most of my books. Since then, I have never played another role
playing game.

I do hold out some hope that Navia Dratp will draw some people into Chess
variants. It sometimes takes only a little push to move someone in this
direction. My early interest in Chess variants had lain dormant for many
years. In 1998, I downloaded an abandonware copy of Battle Chess II for
the Amiga, and I ran it on an Amiga emulator on my PC. This turned out to
be Chinese Chess, which got me interested in the possibility of finding
programs that would play other Chess variants. I then found programs for
Shogi, Grand Chess, and Capablanca's Chess. A short time later I
discovered this site, and shortly after that, Zillions debuted, and the
rest is history. It's possible that Navia Dratp will directly inspire an
interest in Chess variants in only a few people, but even if that's all
that happens, it could have a rippling effect if even just one of them
becomes a regular member of the CV community. So there is potential that
Navia Drapt will help the CV cause even if I'm not going to buy the game
myself.

Fergus,
It's been confirmed by distributors that ND booster packs will be mystery
grab bags of 3 minis for $9. The same with the 8 minis in the starter set,
except you can see the Navia through the packaging. Wizkids already uses 
this marketing tactic, and me and my brother probably have 200 click-dial 
miniatures between us. I stopped buying them cold turkey last year after I 
saw Navia Dratp, and started selling them off, because I am strictly a
'one-expensive-miniatures-game-at-a-time' kind of guy. I feel your pain.

Michael,
true or false: game companies should not sell a sealed box of random game
components in which the purchaser does not know what he is paying for. Is
such a company exploiting its customers? Or as I would say, hey, I can't
blame them for milking a cash cow for all it's worth. The answer could be
interpreted as a statement about morality. Stay on this channel after the
movie for a shocking expose on the 11:00 news. I was being deliberately
hyperbolic, sorry-- but that's because controversy is so much more
interesting. ;^)

Any relation to David Howe?

One of the reasons that video-game adaptations of these sorts of games are
so great is that the only money you spend is the $20-$50 on the game
itself...  Of course if successive versions are released, we all know how
that goes.  Still, there really isn't anything like playing a game with
physical pieces with a human sitting opposite you.

An average of $3 a piece may seem a little high, but do recall that you
use much fewer pieces in an army for Navia Dratp than you do cards in any
given CCG, meaning that in the long run you may spend less money to get a
'really good' set.  Of course, none of us knows until it's released.  I
suggest we all wait until then, and *then* start to bash the game's little
details.

I played Navia Dratp Tournement this weekend. There are a few rules that
you don't have listed.

1 Winning the game: Capturing opponents Navia, Moving your Navia off the
opposite side of the board, collecting all 60 points.

2 When a piece is captured, you recieve it's value in points, 1 or 3 for
the pawns, and the promotion cost for a figure. 

3. You may use your turn to promote a piece without moving it, but you
can
not move any other piece.

Mike,
this is exciting news! Where was this tournament? How was it possible to
conduct a whole tournament before the public release? Do you mean a demo?
Can you describe some of the pieces?

What I want to know isn't how many pieces are going to be rare but,
how
many are there going to be total in the series? (Series 1)Such as is
there
going to be a checklist type page sent out with each booster? Or no? And
if not how will you be able to get one? Most people will want to know how
many there are so that they know wether or not they have the whole set
or,
if they still need to get more. 
   Also if there is only three pieces in the boosters then how will they
be arranged? 1 Rare and two others per box. Or 1 rare, 1 uncommon and, 1
common per box? The set up design of the boosters will also have a big
effect on sales too.

From someone helping with Bandai's demos and game play.  Trying to answer
some of the questions I've seen:

I believe that there will be 31 pieces total in the first series (7 each
in 2 starters and 17 pieces only available in the boosters.  There is a
checklist in the instruction booklet that comes with the starters.  Hope I
remembered it correctly.

Right now the rules allow you to have any 7 masetai that you wish on your
side.  No duplicates unless you have a painted and unpainted figure.  The
theory behind allowing any pieces of your choice is that if you pick
figures that all have to high of a drapting cost (the more powerful
figures) that you will never earn enough gyullas to use them.  So you need
to balance your team.  We'll just have to see how this works out because
I'm not sure if the theory will work or not.

Because there are 3 different ways to win you may pick very different
pieces from your opponent.  Again, we will have to see if this theory
works out or if everyone is going to play with the same figures.

Bandai is having very small informal tournaments at some of the summer
conventions.  So far Origins, Anime Expo, San Diego Comic Con.  First
officially scheduled tournament will be at Gen Con Indy.  We have been
having the players draft pieces from the 2 starters to form their side and
it has worked out pretty well so far.  Not sure how Gen Con Indy will be
run yet.  Prizes have included starters and boosters for the top couple of
winners.  

Hope this helps a little.

Unofficial news but this should be accurate:

Odd - (revival) has the ability to revive as many black gulleds as
possible from your graveyard for 6 gyullas

Lord Kiggoshi - (smart bomb) drapt for 25 gyullas and kill all pieces even
your own in 3x3 grid on the board

Nemchant - (power destroyer) for 7 gyullas un-drapt all pieces even your
own on the board

Hansa - one of his movements is move diagnolly but can bounce off the side
of the board

Those are a few of the pieces in the booster boxes.

I got the demo set in yesterday, and the game is gorgeous, and we're
looking forward to generating some excitment for the game by the time it
appears mid-August. The game play is relatively simple to grasp the
basics, then it takes a bit more study to get to the strategy of it all.

I know the collectibility of the pieces is going to turn some people off
of the game. As a retailer, of course, I enjoy what collectibility does
to
my cash register. As a player, I'm torn on it. I like the excitment of
the
chase, but if I'm really wanting a particular piece, then I'm going to
be
frustrated if it doesn't turn up within a few purchases.

Give the game a try...I think most of you will find it enjoyable. And if
nothing else, the pieces are beautiful to look at--and not all of them
are
little 'girlie' figures. They should appeal to both genders.

Thanks to Michele from Conclave Games in Louisiana for sending me info
about the Maseitai that come with the first starter sets. In the following
descriptions, keep in mind that each piece may only Dratp one time (I
think).
     Here is the team that comes in the set of the Navia named Estelle.
     #1. 'Troll' looks like an elf with long ears, bug eyes and bug
wings. It moves as a Ferz (one diagonal step). For 4 gyullas, Troll
promotes to a Dabbabah Ferz (leaps to the second-out orthogonal space, or
one diagonal step.) 'Navia Guard:' Can be summoned not just to a
Summoning Square, but also to any square adjacent to the Navia. 'Energy
Drop:' Earn 10 gyullas when Troll is sent to the Graveyard by your
opponent.
     #2. 'Agunilyos' is an anthropomorphic tiger wearing armor and a
cape with a sword. It moves as a King, but for 16 gyullas promotes to a
Queen.
     #3. 'Hamulus Garuda' is an anthropomorphic pterodactyl carrying a
six-barreled crossbow. It moves as a Ferz combined with non-leaping Alfil.
(In other words, up to two steps in any diagonal direction.) For 9 gyullas
it promotes to King + Bishop.
     #4. 'Garrison' is an anthropomorphic panther wearing armor and a
cape with a sword. It starts as a Gold General (like a King missing the
backward diagonal directions) and promotes for 5 gyullas to a Lance (a
Rook that can only move forward). I sure wouldn't Dratp this piece,
unless you have another one with the magic power to bring him back when
he's stuck helpless on the farthest rank.
     #5. 'Netol' is a woman with rabbit ears, a huge collar-frill like a
lizard, and skin as ebony as night. She can take one step straight forward
or backward, or the forward diagonals, but not straight to the side, or
back diagonals. For 5 gyullas she invokes the 'Spider's Thread:'
Resurrect any Maseitai of your choice from your Graveyard to any open
Summoning Squares, and send Netol to take its place in the Graveyard.
     #6. 'Gundrill' is a wrinkly Mandrill ape with screaming jaws full
of fangs and a gigantic exposed brain. It moves as a Ferz combined with
non-leaping Alfil. (In other words, up to two steps in any diagonal
direction.) For 6 gyullas, decrease its range of movement so that it can
only move side-to-side up to two spaces, and it gains 'Voice to Call:'
Once per turn, you may move one of your battle pieces of your choice (such
as the promoted Garrison, I hope) from anywhere on the battlefield to any
open space adjacent to Gundrill, except for the ones straight left and
right.
     The following is the team that comes in the set of the Navia named
Deborah.
     #7. 'Tiny Kiggoshi' looks like a green Martian with a big spherical
braincase, a conical hat with streamers, slouching posture and a vapid
expression. It takes one step right, left or forward. For 14 Gyullas
invoke 'Shared Destruction:' Send Tiny Kiggoshi plus any Battle Piece of
your choice (even your own) from the Battlefield to the Graveyard.
     #8. 'Olip' is a little floating, puffy, multi-colored glowing jelly
with flaps like a flying squirrel and tiny fangs under his cute beady eyes.
He takes one orthogonal step. For 4 gyullas, invoke 'Reflection in the
Water:' On the turn that you Dratp, switch the position of two of your
pieces on the Battlefield.
     #9. 'Gilgame II' appears to be a giant bio-mecha like I used to see
Voltron fighting. It moves as a Silver General (one step diagonally or
straight forward). For 11 gyullas it promotes to King + Dabbabah +
non-leaping Alfil. (1 or 2 steps in any direction.)
     #10. 'Moses' is an anthropomorphic dinosaur with a pteranodon
crest, wearing armor and a cape and weilding a battleaxe. It moves up to 2
steps orthogonally. For 10 gyullas, promote to King + Rook.
     #11. 'Nebguard' is an anthropomorphic ram with giant spiral horns,
wearing armor and weilding what appears to be a polearm. It moves up to
two steps, diagonally forward or straight backward. For 3 gyullas, he
promotes to go as far as desired in those three directions, like a
'forward Bishop' combined with 'backward Rook.'
     #12. 'Gyullas Turtle' is a flying robot turtle who moves one step
in the three forward directions. For 5 gyullas, invoke 'Gyullas
Glutton:' Earn 6 gyullas per turn when Gyullas Turtle moves from now on.
     #13. 'Kapinah' is an anthropomorphic bird of prey wearing armor and
weilding a sword. It moves one step straight forward. For 8 gyullas,
promote to move one step forward, left, right, or diagonally forward, and
invoke 'Dive Bomb:' On the turn that you Dratp, immediately fly to any
open space on the Battlefield.

I noticed in the list below (and the card pics on your website (thanks for
posting)) that there are only six different Maseitai listed for one of the
starters.

I know I could wait until the release :|, but I'm just curious if that
means there are 2 of the same in that set, or if one was just accidentally
omitted?

Definetely looking forward to the game!

P.

(Follow-up to my preceding post)
Today, a gallery of all pieces (& cards) came online. Thus the missing
piece is the following:
#14. 'Koma' looks like a sort of knight in a shell/stone armore. Moves
to any of a line of 5 squares in front of him (good defense?)
Power: 'Sealing' - For 8 Gyullas, send any Maseitai of your choice (even
your own) from battlefield to the Keep(Seal), Koma must be sent to
Graveyard.

The pictures seem to be from the final mass-production version, which went
through the unfortunately expected process of 'cheapification'. The
biggest changes are:
- noticeably less detailed Navias (especially noticeable since the
pictures of the original promotional pieces are still used on the cards)
Maybe a little paint touch-up would improve them, but the sculptures look
less detailed too...
- a redesigned board which look like it just might be a piece of paper
folded in four (I always wondered how they would fit the original mat,
even rolled up, into the boxes on display) Regardless of the physical
aspect, I liked the original design better (but that can be helped too)

But all the other parts, incl. the Maseitai still look very nice, and of
course none of the above detracts from a hopefully interesting gameplay.

P.

I don't know if links to (commercial) websites are permissible, but at
the moderator's discretion: http://www.toywiz.com/nadrfiga.html
(I have not personally dealt with the shop, and do not endorse it in any
way) Otherwise, as always, Google is your helpful assistant.

(Finally got my ID, since it looks like I'm posting more than one or two
messages :)

Since at least initially Navia Dratp will only have a small audience, and
players will be fairly few and far inbetween, by location or schedule (in
my case) I have been toying with creating a simple online/play-by-email
adaptation to try and get to play with other enthusiasts.

As a warm-up I have created a Tori Shogi adaptation (on which Navia Dratp
seems to be loosely based) using a generic, free/open-source
boardgame/wargame engine called the Vassal engine
(http://vassalengine.org/) which runs on all major OSes, and allows for
both online and play-by-email gaming.

If you would like to give it a shot, the beta can be found in the
'Files' section of the Yahoo Group of the same name.

Also let me know if you would be interested in playing that way. I admit
that regrettably any virtual version won't let you use the nice physical
components but at least you get to play... and hey, I plan to make an
effort to make it as nice as possible (see my Tori Shogi adaptation)

P.

Here's a list I found of the additional Pieces available through
Booster Packs:

NAVIAS:
N-003 Navia Io,  N-004 Navia Krra

MASEITAI:
M-015 Schmidt,   M-016 Matogayu,      M-017 Midrah,
M-018 Kanaba,    M-019 Sungyullas,    M-020 Tanhoizer,
M-021 Kanimiso,  M-022 Billpentod,    M-023 Hansa,
M-024 Kapinahs,  M-025 Odd,           M-026 Coydrocomp,
M-027 Nemchant,  M-028 Lord Kiggoshi, M-029 Chugyullas

Together with the 2 Navias and 14 Maseitais from the Starter Sets, that
makes for a total of 33 unique pieces in the first release.

Lucky You :) I ordered mine online since the only decent Gamestore in my
area closed down a couple of months ago... there's a comicbookstore, but
it's all YuGiOh cards :p

I was thinking about starting a Yahoo Group, since there doesn't seem to
be one yet, and it's free too... Of course a website would be more
flexible, if you can host it & build it.

Speaking of online presence, the Bandai marketeers are keeping a VERY low
profile, aren't they? Companies like Wizkids drum up interest for months
with sneak peeks, forums, downloadable rules etc, but Bandai's website:
'Coming soon'? They must be very sure of their success or, on the
contrary, not care that much (since it's not a big property/brand
anyway)?

That is the funny thing though, usually an internet presence is the glue
that holds a community of gamers together between conventions and special
in-store events, as all the smaller and larger game companies catering to
the 'Hobby market' know well.

Unlike major companies like Hasbro, or Bandai, which cater to the
mainstream market with palette-loads of games shipped to the local
Toys'R'Us, mainly big 'properties' and family classics like Monopoly,
Pictionary, Stratego etc., smaller companies like Wizkids, Decipher etc.
need to foster a community, especially online(!), organize tournaments
etc.,which obviously a large corporation like Bandai isn't used to doing
(even though they talk the talk, as per the interview you mention) I also
remember reading an interview (maybe the same) about them opening a
specific website like that, but one would think that by the time a product
is released, it should be up and running... I guess we'll see on
Saturday.

I just finished reading a book on (non-computer) Game Design and the
rather peculiar american games industry responsible for manufacturing and
distributing these games, and it was full of anecdotes of mismanagement
and odd decisions that make you wonder what were they thinking? It's just
funny to see it ongoing.

Perhaps, because it is aimed at such a 'small' market they don't know
well, Bandai has barely been able to meet the demand with more pre-orders
than expected, and not wanting to overstock, and thus have no interest in
pushing it at this time...

Another example would be Wizkids, who previously ran into major problems
producing _too much_ product, and not finding any buyers, and just
recently largely miscalculated the interest in their latest product,
Pirates of the Spanish Main, after fanning the interest of gamers for
months _online_ (irregardless of wether it's actually a good game), and
ended up well short of the demand. Now some people make quite a bit of
money on eBay while Wizkids looses sales, scrambling to get more product
manufactured.

Anyway, just some idle musings...

PL,
my brother has Pirates otSM. I've played it and it's fun. The best thing
about it is that they actually printed it all correctly; no errata sheet!

The guy I'm corresponding with who is with Bandai organized play says to
wait two or three weeks and they will have their company's organized play
system complete.

In the meantime my local chess variants group is getting together to play
Navia Dratp tonight.

Matt,

I'm glad you got your starters already.  I'll be working at the Bandai
booth at Gen Con Indy next week doing demos and Erick will be running
Navia Drapt tournaments during the convention.  Hopefully, we will get a
good turnout for the tournaments.  Creator of the game is supposed to come
from Japan and play the winner of the tournament.

Matt,
Hope it will be enjoyable, and give us your impressions afterwards!

Even if my order ships in time, I don't think it'll make it for the
weekend, so I guess I can focus on the Vassalengine adaptation in the
meantime...

At some point it would be interesting to discuss strategy, since you seem
to have quite some experience in chess-style games. Personally, I have a
much better (yet still not very good) understanding of Go strategy than
Shogi, or even western chess, since it was never a game popular in my
circle of friends/gamers.

PL,
from having played this one time, I can already tell you that my negative
evaluation of Garrison is slightly revised. He promotes from Shogi's
'Gold General' to Shogi's 'Lance,' but I now see that the ranged
movement is printed as a dashed line. According to the rule book this
means a ranged move that can leap over its first obstruction if desired.
That partially makes up for the fact that the closer promoted-Garrison
gets to the opponent's side, the fewer squares he is attacking, until
finally he will sit on the end rank completely immobile. The book seems to
confirm this, because it only refers to going off the end of the board with
gulled (pawns) and Navias. The Maseitai are not even mentioned in that
section. I still think Garrison is only worth using in Tandem with the
Gundrill's 'Voice to Call' or Olip's 'Reflection in the Water.'

You might like my games page with Maseitai pictures and comments:
http://www.geocities.com/nemorathwald/Games.htm#naviadrapt

I'm also pleased to report that one of the booster-pack Maseitai (I'm
not sure of the name) is what we like to refer to as a Reflecting Bishop
(see the Piececlopedia). He may bounce off the edge of the board. How
cool!

Garrison is my least favorite piece in the set.

By the way the piece that can bounce off the sides of the board is called
Hansa piece M-023.

One of the pieces that I like in the boosters is Lord Kiggoshi, piece
M-028.  25 gyullas cost.  Power Smart Bomb.  choose a 3x3 area on the
Battlefield and send all battle pieces (even your own) to the Graveyard.

Note: Navia's are immune to all effects.

James,
I didn't know ND had one main creator. His name should be listed on this
website where it says 'inventor: Bandai'! What's his name? Please ask
him on behalf of chessvariants.com, if it's true that ND was inspired by
Tori (Bird) Shogi!

I played this game twice yesterday at the meeting of SEMI-Abstract Gamers.
(South East MIchigan) Most of them basically agree with my position, that
this will increase interest in chess variants. There are young people such
as my brother who never bothered with chess until ND. He loves it.

Brian,
I wish there were some place to ask these questions. I already have
several. Please post your questions to this page so that we can collect
them all in one place.
1. When a Dratp effect or line-over returns a promoted Maseitai from the
graveyard, does it un-Dratp?
2. On the movement compass, if the adjacent square is white but the second
square out is colored yellow (like promoted Troll), does that mean that it
is a leaping move to the second square? Or does the adjacent square have
to be free of obstruction in order for Troll to get to the second square?
3. If a Maseitai movement compass had the Knight move square colored
yellow, would that be a leap over any obstruction? Or would an adjacent
square have to be unobstructed between the start and the destination-- the
way it is in Chinese Chess?
4. Can a Maseitai ever un-Dratp?
5. Can a Maseitai perform a line-over?

1.) Ans: I believe it does un-dratp and I have been playing it that way. 
Otherwise any Maseitai that goes to the graveyard a sacrifice ability,
like Tiny Kiggoshi would not be able to return without immedately
returning to the graveyard.  At my demo at Origins the example I was
shown
of returning a Maseitai from the graveyard was with Tiny Kiggoshi, who
later drapted again and used his ability again.
1b.) Another related question is when Koma uses sealing to return a
Maseitai to the keep/seal, does the returned piece lose its drapt?

4. Can a Maseitai ever un-Dratp? Ans: No, unless another Maseitai's
ability allows this.  Nemchant upon dratping does un-dratp all the other
playing pieces on the board.

5. Can a Maseitai perform a line-over? Ans: No. The rule book only has
rules concerning gulled and Navia pieces.
5b.) When a red Gulled performs a line over does it get the 3 gyullas
movement bonus (in addition to the 10 gyullas or Maseitai returning from
the graveyard)?

More questions:
6.)If you use Gundrill's invoked ability (4 gyullas per turn) this
essentually ends your turn (option exists to move Gundrill prior to
invoking this ability, working similar to the move and dratp). 
Gundrill's ability 'moves' another Maseitai, perhaps Tiny Kiggoshi. 
Does Tiny Kiggoshi's move constitute a real move in that Tiny K could
then drapt in the same turn?  (For now I'm playing that Tiny K could NOT
drapt.)

Great game, but it would be nice to get offical answers to these rules
question from somewhere.

Thanks. Who are you, if you don't mind?
I agree on #1, that's how I've been playing it, otherwise it would be
crazy.
Regarding #6, any dratp effect such as Gundrill or Olip that carries other
pieces is a move done BY the dratping piece, ON the carried piece(s). I
believe the carried piece is passively having something done to it, so it
definitely may not dratp in my opinion.

I almost hate to admit this, but sometimes fairy princesses kick monster
butt. Yesterday, my brother had my back to the wall playing ND, all I had
left was Navia + Pawn. He had several impressive warriors and I almost
conceded.	But he didn't notice I collected all the currency in the game.
He was going to checkmate me on the next move, when I paid everything to
invoke Navia Dratp and that was that. Hell hath no fury like a woman
scorned, I guess. These four huge juggernauts surrounded a fairy princess
and she blew them away in a single stroke... it was rich, I tell you. I
love a game that's full of surprises without resorting to dice.

Matt, my name is Robert Pedroza, now Tek34 on this board.  I entered my
name in my previous post, but it must have been lost in the validation
process.

I agree with you on #6.  I just finished a long game won by Navia Goal.  I
didn't think the Navia Goal win was too likely a scenario, but in long
game with few pieces remaining it becomes much more viable.  I didn't
have enough gyullas or fire power left to eventually dratp my navia, so I
slowly sneaked my Navia forward until I was two moves away from the end
line.  At that point even the dratped Agunilyos (moves like a Queen)
couldn't position itself to stop the end line run.

7.) Chess/Check question:  In Chess, if by moving a piece (other than your
King) you leave your King open to be taken next turn, does your opponent
need to announce that that move would cause checkmate, or can your
opponent simply take your King to win the game next turn?  Because of a
lack of rules concerning the check Navia Dratp I'd like to simply be
consistance with the Chess check/checkmate rules.

The scenario I had in mind is where there are three pieces all in the same
column.  My King (Navia) was on its end line with the dratp Nebguard
(forward Bishop) one space in front of my Navia.  Three spaces in front of
my Nebguard/Bishop was my opponents dratp Agunilyos (Queen).  If the
Nebguard/Bishop moves away diagonally and exposes the King/Navia can the
Agunilyos/Queen simply take the King/Navia for the win?

Robert,
yes, he can take the Navia and win the game.

ND is based not on Chess, but on Shogi. Chess has a rule against any move
that moves or exposes one's King check, but Shogi explicitly does not!
Therefore, the form of draw in which the King has no legal move, does not
take place in Shogi, because it's a game in which you kill the Jewelled
General, not just checkmate him. As I read the rules of Navia Dratp I
looked for rules about moving into check, and since there weren't any, I
believe ND has this in common with Shogi.

Hi Jeremy,

I'm already working on a full-fledged online/play-by-email adaptation for
Navia Drapt, using the Vassal engine (www.vassalengine.org, also
vassalengine at Yahoo Groups), as previously announced on this group.
Thanks to the work that went into designing and building my Tori Shogi
adaptation (the japanese chess variant ND seems to be most closely related
to, and available in the file section of the vassalengine group), it's
coming along nicely, and should be available soon.

One concern is obviously whether or not Bandai would tolerate any such
adaptation. Generally the guidelines at the vassalengine group (which has
been used to adapt a number of miniature/board/wargames for quite a while
now) is that as long as there is no official online version, and you make
it clear that it is only for existing owners of the 'real' game, and
non-profit, it may sneak by.

Also they also generally only include the materials strictly necessary for
actual play, and not any reference material, which you are supposed to own
in physical form anyway. Which leads to my question regarding the cards:
as I understand it (my set should arrive any day now, thanks to the *$#%&
online store I unfortunately ordered it from): the Cards are only used for
reference (about the special powers), but not as actual in-Game play
element? Is that correct?

Of course anybody is welcome to chime in on the above matters.

(P.S.: I'm aware that in order to access the Beta vassalengine modules at
the Yahoo group requires registration as member, and I will try to find a
less cumbersome solution when the ND module is ready)

Jeremy, I plan on painting a few of my unpainted Maseitai pieces too (for
home play use), though I plan on using alternate colors than the
*official* painted versions so that I can still tell them apart.  The
'official' rare, painted Maseitai I would believe are the only pieces
legal to be doubled up (paired with an unpainted version) in your team. 
It doesn't seem like there is any special marking to differentiate the
offically painted pieces versus the unpainted pieces, but there is an ID
number on every figure that seems like it can be used for this purpose. 
So far the only 'official' painted playing pieces I have seen are the 14
Maseitai from the starter sets.  Starter set pieces seem to have a
different set of ID numbers (52604), than the boosters (21704, 41704,
61704).  Since unpainted Maseitai numbered 1-14 are not found in the
boosters, the rare, 'officially' painted Maseitai from Bandai will have
the set of ID numbers from booster pack pieces only.

Has anyone found Navia Dratp playing pieces with other ID numbers than the
ones I listed above?  It would be nice to have a list of which ID numbers
occur in which formats (starter or booster packs) to help confirm if
pieces are officially painted by Bandai or painted by another player or
collector.

I bought both starter sets, and you're right about one thing, all the
pieces in both of them are labeled 52604. It will be interesting to see
what these numbers can tell us.

What do you mean about officially painted pieces? Are you saying your
starter set came with painted pieces? The only painted ones I got were the
Navias. What about the booster packs? They don't come painted, or do they?

From what I've gathered (esp. if it's true that the manual distinguishes
between painted and unpainted Maseitais), they probably include some
'(ultra)rare' painted Maseitais in the booster packs? I wouldn't be
suprised, since this IS a _Collectible_ Miniatures Game, after all.

I would certainly love to see a picture posted, if anyone here has gotten
one in their packs!? Maybe though those are in league with the Yeti and
the Monster of Loch Ness ;)

As for custom painting doubles, I'm definetely looking forward to that, I
used to enjoy it, but have never been able to keep up with huge number of
paintjobs needed for a certain company's game... at least that won't be
a problem in the foreseeable future with ND :)

P.

The 'official' painted pieces from Bandai are chase figures found only in
the Navia Dratp booster packs, and seem to only include Maseitai numbered
1-14 (at least I haven't seen any above this number).  At Origins a staff
member at the Bandai booth told me that these painted figures would be
found only in the booster packs and when building your team you could not
duplicate the same figure within your team, with the exception of using
one unpainted figure and another of the rare, chase, painted figures found
in booster packs. 

The starter packs never have the painted Maseitai, only painted Navia
(though some of the better unpainted Maseitai are found only in the
starter packs).  Navia are always painted and can never be duplicated
within a team.  The starters have Navia N-001 & N-002, while the booster
packs are the only place to find Navia N-003 IO & N-004 Krra.  Hope this
helps.

Much appreciated, Robert!
As announced in my other post, I finally started my first Yahoo group, in
a surge of, erm, enthusiasm (bad pun, you'll see). Like all groups, it
includes also a gallery, and I already created an album for people to put
pictures of their rare captures in ;) 
If you're up to it, you can upload them there (it's easy to register,
for now I have left membership open)

P.

Announcement: Creation of a Yahoo group for people interested in Navia
Dratp
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/navia_dratp_enthusiasts/

I guess I have too much time on my hands ;) One thing I want to be clear
about is that I don't mean that group to be in some sort of competition
with this one, and I think this one will perhaps remain a little more
mature, especially if ND should ever really catch on.

However, the _free_ benefits of the NDE Yahoo group are, as with every
group there: the searchable archive, the free file storage area (which I
set up to include a folder for peoples' tradelists), picture gallery
(for, among others, their own custom paintjobs people have talked about
here) etc. It should be a nice complement to this one.

I also uploaded my Tori Shogi adaptation, which is more easily accessible
since membership is open for now (unlike the Vassalengine group) If
nothing else, it will allow you to test the Vassalengine/Java setup on
your machine if you are interested in trying out the ND adaptation I plan
on releasing in the future.

P.

P_L, what is your approx. time for haveing the online version done? Do you
need any help? I'm a graphic designer by profession, so if you need
anything, like graphics or scanning...anything, let me know.

These are the figures that I have after 2 starters and 6 boosters.
N-1, 2, 4      M-1 through 14, M-16, M-17x2, M-18x2, M-19 through 22
M-24, M-25x2, M-26 through 28, M-29x2

I also have a slight problem with ND now. Its not major, just annoying. I
bought six boosters and I didn't get a single patined figure other than
a
Navia. What is the rare distribution?

Second, and this is good to me, I don't see this game as very
collectible. I almost have the entire set. I am short 3 total with 1 of
those being a Navia, which I could care less about. And since you can't
duplicate unless one of those is a rare painted, there is really no other
figure I need or want. As long as you get one, which you can probably
pick
up on ebay now for like 2-5 bucks. Ebay will eliminate buying boosters
for
me now. After buying the boosters this first time, and seeing a few figs
that I won't use, I'll just buy the ones I want on ebay. I think the
cost of keeping up with this game will be very low considering how many
actual figures there will be in each set. This starting one only has like
33 total pieces - very low count. An there are a few that I wouldn't
mind
getting rid of.

Hi Jeremy,
I managed to get the main structure of the game finished, but the most
time-consuming part will be a couple of board element scans and especially
taking digipics of the pieces, since I will finally receive my own set
tomorrow. Unfortunately, I'll have a couple of really busy days ahead of
me, but depending how things go, I might get around to it by Sunday, so
perhaps in the evening, otherwise it'll be maybe a couple of days later
at most.

As far as trading goes, you might try the Yahoo group I set up, maybe the
few members so far will be interested in trading directly too, and
hopefully trustworthy enough. I admit that personally I have little
experience in the matter, but would think that trading one for one any
piece of the same rarity as per Bandai's list (?) should be fairly
straightforward...

P.

Robert, Thanks for the pics. The paintjobs leave room for improvement, like
the Navias, but they are certainly pretty good for (sort of) mass-produced
minis.
It will be interesting to see to what extent they can be improved upon by
painting spares of the 'regular' version myself (and others who have
announced interest in doing so) A folder for pictures of those has already
been set up at the Yahoo group...

As for easy to collect, at one per box (of 12), that would _still_ be a
rather expensive endeavour :| , not counting the chances of getting a
double  in the minimum of 29 boxes required ;) I think I'll forget about
getting a complete set of those...

P.

(I may post a summary of this discussion at the Yahoo group, since at
least one new member has shown up asking about a figure list and such)

Jeremy, thanks for the offer! Since mine are due very soon, and I won't be
able to do anything until then (turning in for the night), it may not be
worth the time and trouble to e-mail back and forth. Should there be
another delay though (over the weekend grrrr) I'll certainly take you up
on your offer. 

I'm looking forward to playing myself, due to the absence of any local
gamers (at the only local gamestore they still think ND is something new
shown for the first time at the GenCon...)

Mid august has come and gone and still there's hardly any info on this
game available.
The official website is still 'coming soon'.
I'm disappointed.
I was really looking forward to it though ..... I doubt the game will be
available any time soon in Belgium.

Reminder: there is now a Yahoo group to discuss this game, and much more:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/navia_dratp_enthusiasts/

on 20040826 it is now uncomplete.
I am searching for the movements of the other pieces

The Navia Dratp website is now live... each piece is listed with a
background and remarks if needed for gameplay:

http://www.naviadratp.com

After I found this game last week, I can't stop playing it. However,
there
are a problem happening when I play with my friends. 
It's a moving (compass) problem. Like Hansa,  no 023
(http://www.naviadratp.com/char/m_hansa.html), before Dratp can he
'Jump' over one piece (either mine or oppenent's) and land on the
second space? 
Also Troll , No-001 , we also have an argument after she dratps. 
Can anyone please help this kind 'blocking problem'?

This seem simular to Vantage Master.Consider the following:
They both have absurd names.
They both start with no pieces but the 'Kings' on the board and add more
later.
They both have special cells on which you get more energy to summon the
aforementioned pieces.
They both involve collecting.

I love the idea of a four hand Navia Dratp game. I hadn't put much
thought
into the idea, but had the seed planted soon after playing a few games.

I think I'd design the board differently, but I like your idea of
capturing three Navias and allowing the opponent whose Navia was captured
to remain in play.

Thanks for a fun website!

This game is absolutely, unbelievably incredible.

A lot of the various chess variants seem too esoteric to pay much
attention to, but Navia Dratp at least has a nationwide marketing push
and
relatively wide store availablity.  With a little grassroots effort, you
could pretty easily expect to be able to walk into a game store on a
weekend and find a game.

But here's the important part - the game is GOOD.  The game is easy to
learn but the strategy is intense and very deep.  Unlike most collectible
games, the luck factor only factors in when you purchase boosters; the
gameplay itself is completely strategic.  New players will find
themselves
at a significant disadvantage until they learn the mechanics and piece
interaction.

I don't particularly care for chess, but I am absolutely in love with
Navia Dratp.  Everyone here needs to go out and get it, no exceptions. 
Don't let this one slip by.

After a year or more of obscurity, Navia Dratp is starting to finally take
off.

The new 'Resurgence' set was released in fall, 2005, bringing the total
number of figures to 50.  The new figures are not only totally playable,
but have made the metagame extremely challenging as well.  There is now a
piece which can drain your opponent's gyullas, and also a
'super-queen'
that can move and jump in any direction (although it is expensive to
bring
out).

There's no doubt that ND's popularity was adversely affected by the
miniatures game glut of the past 4 years.  Many gamers had looked at the
game before and decided that it was 'one game too many to spend my money
on'.  But where other games continue to expand beyond their
enthusiasts'
ability to keep up with the ever-growing number of figures, ND remains a
small, balanced, and well-thought-out game.  Our local game store has
begun running weekend tournaments, and the number of participants has
been
growing steadily each week.  If you haven't tried playing yet, there has
never been a better time to start.

It's too expensive for me too -- although my brother and I
would love to get into it.  I guess we'll have to wait for a video game
release.  ;)

> ...and play the many excellent and free chess variants found on these
pages, many of which are better games than Navia anyway.

I find it sad that you claim to know how good of a game a game is when
you
haven't yet tried it.

>It's not completely reliable, of course, and I didn't say
that ND is a poor game...

You did, in fact, say that ND was a poor game with your rating of
'Poor'. It is one thing to rate a page poor when one has not played the
game described within if the instructions are unclear. But that is not
true in this case.

I do not claim that ND is a perfect game. But neither is any other chess
variant here, and thus if rating games in relation to other games here
seems illogical.

I am sorry if this comment or the previous one seemed hostile. But I
cannot help the fact that I am not a member.