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Fischer-Spasski[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
George Duke wrote on Thu, Apr 13, 2017 08:26 PM UTC:

In Bob versus Bo 1972, you know Fischer-Spassky Game 6, Spassky stood and joined the audience upon completion in applause it was supposedly so great a game.  Yet instead if 15 ...Rxc5, there are 1 0-0 Ra7 or 1 Rxc5 Qxc5 or 1 b4 Rxc1.  First impression proposals, correct them if they're wrong.  Annotations  never seem to have mentioned the obvious.  Where is the  fallacy that Black now stands better after Rxc5? I would look at programs for Bifurcators or Rococo or Eurasian or Three Player or Time Travel or Falcon Chess, when they exist, but not  for peewee famous Game 6 a la Fischer/Kasparov/Carlsen.  White's position is not so good and Black has to capitalize immediately.

  What do the engines say? Game Six 1972 is considered a top ten sort of game for OrthoChess: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1340520/10-greatest-chess-games-From-Kasporov-vs-Bobby-Fischers-victory.html.

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044366.  Throw out the frivolous ones K. versus world, C. versus world, Astronaut versus whomever, and the above is about the best game ever played, but it should never have reached the great finale.


George Duke wrote on Tue, Apr 11, 2017 08:10 PM UTC:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1340520/10-greatest-chess-games-From-Kasporov-vs-Bobby-Fischers-victory.html.

Game 6 routinely gets listed in top 5 or 10 all-time games, 1972 Fischer-Spassky. The position after 15 dxc5:

  But instead of Black taking with Pawn, 15 ...Rxc5 stands Black advantage, and nowhere found yet is this annotated (several versions checked back in 2012).  See what programs say since I have not bothered yet.  The 'Rxc5' was discovered when this thread reviewed all the games in 40-year anniversary 2012 as  the day they occurred. Game_6.  GMs have observed Spassky's supposed mistake 14 ...a6 instead of 14 ...Qb7, called ''correct."  Where is the fallacy?  No offense if someone can explain why Black does not easily at least equalize that way -- since we variantists are expert at dozens of games, not just the one peewee 64-version of Fischer/Kasparov/Carlsen.  Is there some sure attack against the unguarded Queen -- or Rook -- lurking, or something else?


George Duke wrote on Mon, Apr 10, 2017 08:26 PM UTC:

 Looking back again ChessBase currently runs a 1972 interview before the two-month match.

http://en.chessbase.com/post/bobby-fischer-on-the-dick-cavett-show.  Fischer gives a quick television lesson right before the Fischer-Spassky Reykjavik match, "Lose the King, lose the game," but since you  cannot capture the King it almost suggests a CV.  He uses "straight" for Rook and may not have known the word 'orthogonal' as alternative. Queen "a very powerful piece." His describing Knight as two straight then one straight is inferior to perception of Knight to oblique nearest squares automatically.  This is really Chess for Dummies.  It is easier for us in wake of Gilman's so many non-radial long-range leapers and also oblique Falcon, claimed first of the four fundamental chess pieces.    Fischer says he actually dreams of detective mysteries not Chess.  He answers Ralph Nader presciently about Chess live tv events, saying just reduce time controls to avoid 3 hours. Also it is second nature to Fischer already 45 years ago that Chess is finite but "beyond the mind's comprehension," he means all at once.


George Duke wrote on Sat, Sep 1, 2012 03:26 PM UTC:
The result of the match 12.5-8.5 Fischer over Spassky changes to Spassky
over Fischer 11.0-10.0 with these four moves improved:
http://www.chessvariants.org/index/displaycomment.php?commentid=29434.
However, there was a fifth move alteration to factor in, Game 11, http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044724, where 22 ...Bb5 wins for Black in this case Fischer.  That causes revision total points to 10.5-10.5. Since Spassky as the champion appropriately would have the tiebreak of this kind, as done today, Spassky wins again 10.5 to 10.5.  Petrosian in 1966 defended the title against Spassky 12.5-11.5, and then in 1969 Spassky had become world chess champion with 12.5-10.5 over Petrosian. So Fischer-Spassky 1972 was Boris Spassky's third championship match, and he reigned 3 years the same duration as Bobby Fischer more or less.

George Duke wrote on Thu, Aug 30, 2012 10:56 PM UTC:
The outcome:
Fischer 12.5 - 8.5 on winning Game 21 Thursday 31.August.1972, http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1008424.
Games 22-24 were not played because no catch-up was possible.  He can
only be said to have played competitively two or three times after Game 21
against Spassky. One of course is the Spassky-Fischer revenge rematch in
1992. What were the other one or two? Did any other champion quit immediately upon winning the title? No, but Paul Morphy came close to such abrupt departure, following similar pattern of retirement. (Joe, David, sorry I failed to close link that now highlights part of Muller's comment out of thread, looking for a '>' and  cannot reach the last comment; this parenthesis to be erased once those 'Game 20/21' just erased, as Game 21 now is here above, and Muller's 'missing' comment gets back to 'Advantage'.)

George Duke wrote on Thu, Aug 30, 2012 07:46 PM UTC:
Game_20 Draws Tuesday 29.August.1972. Then Thursday 31.August.1972 Fischer wins, Game_19, played Sunday 27.August.1972 Draws.

There are two games left as it turns out. Inescapable conclusion is that the final points 12.5-8.5 could hypothetically be reversed with these individual moves and indicated result:

GAME 6: Change to new move 15 ...Rxc5 and Black would win not White, 0-1 not 1-0, for interim 11.5-9.5. ...

GAME 13: New move 25 f5... and White should at least Draw, 1/2-1/2 not 0-1, for interim 11.0-10.0.

GAME 15: New move 28 R x e5... and White definitely wins, 1-0 not 1/2-1/2, for interim 10.5-10.5.

GAME 5: New move 27 Qb1... and White should Draw, 1/2-1/2 not 0-1 (only this Game 5 annotation to be completed yet), for interim/final result 11.0-10.0, now Spassky total on the left side for the first time.

Each of the above four changes is progressive accrual in favor of Spassky and against Fischer. Thus with just those four revised moves in different games, Spassky could have been winner 11.0 to 10.0 in re-tallying of the points total by way of thought-experiment.


George Duke wrote on Sat, Aug 25, 2012 03:26 PM UTC:
There are 3 more games next week, final standings will have been 12.5-8.5. Just reversing the result of the classical all-time best game Game 6, which Spassky should win not Fischer, would yield 11.5-9.5. Besides Game 6, there are more scores already to re-tally in ongoing summary revision. We won't need Game 13 necessarily because of all the other findings, but more complete annotation follows. In Game_13, played Thursday 10.August.1972 at Reykjavik, Iceland, where returned Fischer died 5 years ago, 25 Qc3 is the bad move.

After 25 f5... instead,

If 25 ...e6 26 f6, Or if 25 ...f6 26 exg6, Or if 25 ...gxf5 26 Nxf5, Or if 25 ...g5 26 Bxg5, Or if 25 ...Nc4 26 Qc1, Or if 25 ...h5 26 g5. Prevailed upon to follow through, each of the above stands White better. Fischer won this Game 13 with the Black pieces but given the first 24 moves, White-Spassky should win with improved Move 25.

Now the favorite Game_6, mentioned above easily wins for Black not White by its correct Move 15 ...Rxc5. That example would switch the interim re-total to Fischer 11.5 and Spassky 9.5 after all the 21 games of championship played. Other single key move changes proven would have given Spassky, hypothetically doing the right thing, more points, yet to be itemized specifically here, and the tournament.


George Duke wrote on Fri, Aug 24, 2012 03:32 PM UTC:
Game_17 and Game_18 were played respectively 22.August.1972 and 24.August.1972. Both are Draws. The Game 18 of 24 August was played not Friday but Thursday, and all games were played Su-Tu-Th, not year 2012's M-W-F by: '40 + 10 intervening leap years being 50' and throw out the sevens for one year (= one day) advance of day-to-date. In Game 18 Black-Spassky has c-Pawn in the sixth file already by Move 18 but it is still sitting there two in front of White King at the end of this game. Rather than that 18 ...b3, he should go 18 ...bxc3.

George Duke wrote on Wed, Aug 22, 2012 04:34 PM UTC:
Ilyumzhinov_on_fischer/spassky.

George Duke wrote on Mon, Aug 20, 2012 03:41 PM UTC:
Http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044730. Game 15 from Draw to
Win is as striking as classic Game 6 from Loss to Win.  For the record in
the above score of Game 15, after 27 ...Bxe5 28 Rxe5 is win for White, or
cause for Black to resign, chiefly because if 28 ...Qxe5 29 Nxf7, forking Queen
and Rook.  Game 16 played to the day forty years 20.August.1972, http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044370, Draws.  Should it?
Fischer after Game 13 has 6 wins to Spassky's 3, and that bears on the topic first-move advantage in cvpage, Fischer playing less aggressively or at least riskily after Game 13, contributing to
 the next several games Drawn.
Back to today's Game 16, notice by Move 12 completion, both sides are down to four pieces and Queens are gone. 
'16...bxc4' is suspect, tripling pawns all three in the c-file, in favor of 16 ...Nc5 instead.

George Duke wrote on Sat, Aug 18, 2012 03:03 PM UTC:
Http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044730. At the Game 15 it
turns out there is an immediate cause for resignation after the next White move. Fischer was known to say ''find a better move'' after finding a good one. Well, Fischer's 27 ...Bxe5 becomes a complete blunder if Spassky had seen the one right move in response. Move 28 is the right juncture where White goes wrong when having the edge already for a win. Taking Pawn-f7 with the Knight, suggested last comment, http://www.chessvariants.org/index/displaycomment.php?commentid=29398, may improve on White's actual '28 Qxf7', that just seals a Draw to Black-Fischer's benefit. '28 Nxf7' probably is still in Draw territory because of the couple of good potential Black follow-ups. However, the substituted correct move instead '28 Rxe5' and Fischer has to resign! It should by logical right go after the real 27 ...Bxe5 '28 Rxe5 Resign 1-0'.

George Duke wrote on Fri, Aug 17, 2012 04:00 PM UTC:
In Game 15 played 17.August.1972,
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044730, White-Spassky has
been up a Pawn since Move 14. Continuing to simplify csutiously is guiding
Spassky when he trades Rooks, and right after that an ordinary Pawn
exchange is where White goes wrong. Instead of 28 Qxf7..., '28 Nxf7...'
could make this Draw a win for White. In the actual game, taking the h-Pawn puts White up two Pawns to no avail, but the h-Pawn will probably be short-lived anyway, so it's more important to capture the f7-pawn with the Knight at the candidate suspect Move 28, forking Bishop and Rook.

George Duke wrote on Thu, Aug 16, 2012 04:17 PM UTC:
Http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044369.  15.August.1972 there
afore was played forty years ago Game 14, a longish Draw.  In two Games 6 and 11 we have found one changed move which in each reverses the outcome, and there is a third example of that, Game 3. That third case is still to be documented and proven and the revised move stated. It is different only in perhaps being a gift by gentleman Boris Spassky, it appeared on first reading, after the disputing earlier two games. In all three one corrected move makes a win a loss, loss a win. Is that unusual or remarkable?  Certainly the much studied Fischer-Spassky championship Game 6 it is shocking. However, follow-up will see in general from other championship or grandmaster games, as Chessbase recently said Kasparov found two such instances in Kramnik games, where a single different move clearly yields the opposite result. Start of research on the question eventually follows this thread. (As of now, Game 13 annotation finds where White goes wrong but stops short of claiming the better move will reverse the outcome.)

George Duke wrote on Mon, Aug 13, 2012 03:25 PM UTC:
Http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1128889. That Game 13 played
10.August.1972 has prior
http://www.chessvariants.org/index/displaycomment.php?commentid=29382.
Where does White go wrong? At dilly-dallying Move 25 Qc3. Queen wants to keep the off-center diagonal c1-h6 if possible.  The contested space is e6, as evidenced after the fact by Fischer's 26 ...e6. How about White's going 25 f5...?  Peculiarly no piece either side has a very good move for a turn or two here.  The focus after 25 f5... becomes on handling the Pawns in the northeast quadrant. Dreadful for Black because right in front of Black King. This way the f-Pawn gets moved twice in three moves and may well be a third time by another move or two. If it is going to drag on, all three Rook, Rook and Queen of White have incredible mobility compared to their counterparts.  With the accompanying Knight move Spassky made pushing back the Queen, Fischer is on the wall.

George Duke wrote on Wed, Aug 8, 2012 03:38 PM UTC:
Http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044368.  Game 12 played
8.August.1972 Draws. Match is in the second half, and after 12 games Fischer has won 5, Spassky 3 for scoring 7-5.

Continuing annotating Game 11, Http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044724, 22 c5 Bb5 and both Queens are en prise. White cannot take the Bishop because 23 Qxb5 Qxb5. Instead for White, immediate Queen exchange 23 cxb6 Bxd3 should become winning for Black. If 23 Nc4 Qd8. That leaves only moving the White Queen, and anywhere off the diagonal gives Black positive exchange of Bishop for Rook. 

Conclusion is that like with pivotal Game 6, one changed move gives the full point to the other side than actually won it in the championship. The earlier Game 6   [ http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044366 ] should go for Spassky not Fischer with 15 ...Rxc5 in that one, and Game 11 here above should go for Fischer not Spassky with revised '22 ...Bb5'. Fischer's Game 11 22 ...Qb5 is weak. That's where Black goes wrong and loses Game 11.

George Duke wrote on Tue, Aug 7, 2012 06:22 PM UTC:
Http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044724, Game 11 played 6.August.1972. 

Option I.  22 c5 Bb5.

Option II. Fischer offering Queen trade is saying Queen will not figure in his mating
combination. Instead, 22 c5 Qd8 puts Black Queen central to some Pawn
combination in the offing (why rush it?), and Black seems to have the
initiative where neither did before. 'fxg4' is real trouble if done after the right Queen position is found, whereas 'cxd6' is not such a threat. In the actual game fxg4 was done and cxd6 was never done, White winning anyway without 'cxd6' because of Fischer's faulty haste. So after 22 c5 Qd8 23 Be2 may be the best White can do now, at least preventing 'fxg4'.

George Duke wrote on Mon, Aug 6, 2012 06:09 PM UTC:
Game_11. Game 11 played to the day 6.August.1972 (were there ever any adjournments, so a game would take two days occasionally, as in other tournaments circa 1970? I think not.) Spassky wins so where does Fischer-black go wrong? Each game has a name. Appropriately titled 'crime and punishment' Fischer tries a Queen sacrifice that fails, not even an exchange sacrifice. Upon 21 a3..., material is even, so just look at the last ten moves. At 23 Q-c3 Spassky refuses to trade Queens and two move later he get Black Queen for free!

George Duke wrote on Fri, Aug 3, 2012 04:36 PM UTC:
Game10. After 22 Bxf6... how about 22 ...b5-b4? Black becomes down a Knight for the moment, Bishop has no retreat except a1 or b2, and Rook a8-d8 can pin the Queen.

George Duke wrote on Thu, Aug 2, 2012 11:26 PM UTC:
Http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1008423, where Game 10 is
played forty years ago to the day 3.August.1972. Where does Black go wrong? What would be better move than 26 ...axb5? Can Black save this one somehow?

George Duke wrote on Tue, Jul 31, 2012 12:38 AM UTC:
Game 9 played 1.August.1972 Draws,
Http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1128884.

George Duke wrote on Fri, Jul 27, 2012 04:03 PM UTC:
Http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1340520/10-greatest-chess-games-from-Kasparov-vs-Bobby-Fischers-victory.html. Number 6 by the Mail in the list is Fischer-Spassky Game 6, that this thread shows Spassky wins with 15 ...Rxc5.
Game 8 played today 27.July.1972: Http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044367.

George Duke wrote on Wed, Jul 25, 2012 03:42 PM UTC:
Game 7 played today 25.July.1972 is Draw,
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044728.
Spassky should take the full point, not Fischer, in the last Game 6 with 15 ...Rxc5. No computer is having been used used for the hypothesis, and as well possibly with other annotations there is not even suggested a Black win missed yet at any other Move the Game 6 that puts Fischer ahead for the rest of the tournament.  Is there a saving move for Fischer in a Move 16 with the White Knight or something else? Black would appear to stand better after the corrected Move 15, and White's best chance to defer the outcome is the same 0-0 really made.

George Duke wrote on Tue, Jul 24, 2012 05:59 PM UTC:
Where does Black go wrong in Game 6 played 23.July.1972? The tournmant now
becomes 3.5-2.5 and the games run to end of August.
Http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044366. Instead of 15
...bxc5, how about taking with the Rook 15 ...Rxc5?  By 37 ...Nf6, it is too late as Fischer will inevitably under-trade Rook for that Knight in ensuing exchange sacrifice.  Once Spassky makes the supposed mistake 14 ...a6 instead of 14 ...Qb7, called ''correct'' and discovered later, it throws a monkey wrench into all the subsequent moves in not comparing exactly with any other score even since from rather early Move 15 on. Http://www.home.roadrunner.com/~etzel/72game6.htm.   //// Later: the link calls Game 6 here one of the best in the tournament. Can anyone find '15 ...Rxc5' annotated in support of Black? It appears after 15 ...Rxc5, 1 0-0 R-a7 or 1 Rxc5 Qxc5 or 1 b4 Rxc1, every choice advantages Black afterwards. Fischer's position may not be so great at this point with that right continuation against inactive Pawns of White. He only gets away with it upon quick Castling the very next move, which the forward Rook at c5 then would alleviate instead.

George Duke wrote on Mon, Jul 23, 2012 06:58 PM UTC:

What was happening forty years ago to the day? 23.July.1972 Game 6, http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044366. Move '41 Qf4 1-0' is just logical ending to the position with the advanced Pawn for White. The crisp Capablanca-like play came earlier. Move 41 is neat for what variantists think of as ''mad Queen OrthoChess'': rabiosa because perfecting Chess, Queen gains the Rook and Bishop power after year 1500. At move 41, if the Black Rook does not interpose, it is to be checkmate, and if Black Rook moves e7-h7, the Queen will be lost. It is not frequent without any Knight involved to get such interesting Scylla and Charybdis position letting Black no way out, despite up in material.

 

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