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Comments by RichardHutnik
Note that I changed the documentation to differentiate the specific game rules in the IAGO Chess System from the IAGO Chess System itself as a framework to manage change and the varieties of chess.
As of this point, the name of the pieces have been changed. The Archbishop is now a Cardinal and the Chancellor is a Marshall. The Empress piece is called an Amazon, but may get chanced back to Empress. The use of Cardinal and Marshall allows flexibility in the naming of the Amazon/Empress piece, as per the community collectively agreeing to it.
I believe the framework of chess can be addressed now so that we never turn chess into a solved game. I personally believe there is part of the answer in a game like Seirawan Chess, or a pocket version with reserves, but I don't think they alone have the answer. It also doesn't address the framework issue either that gets chess stuck, and all the classic abstract strategy game (stuck here means set on a path to being 'solved', without a way to adjust before it does). My take on Godel's Incompleteness Theorm is that you don't solve the systemic issues with a certain set of rules by creating more rules of the same type. If it is show, for example with chess, that a set configuration of chess pieces on the board eventually produces something that is solved, then changing the configuration of the pieces on the board alone doesn't resolve it either (one time, fixed). You can change the their starting position (aka Chess960/Pick your Army/MetaChess or the V and X versions of IAGO Chess), the layout of the board at start (and also changing it during play, aka Beyond Chess), or when the pieces enter the game (IAGO/Seirawan/Pocket Knight/Pocket Mutant), and help to push things out further. If you build into the framework by which you can do all of the above, you buy more time. What regular chess has now is not a way to make chess get 'unstuck', allowing it to adjust over time. I suggest all of the above be considered and integrated, and the players settled on what works best. Eventually even this mix of everything leads to a 'stuck' position as the playing community may figure out what is optimal. By then, some other people will need to come up with another layer of rules to insure things are unstuck. I can't say this for certain, but I do know unsticking chess by doing all of the above should likely buy chess another 1000 years, using all of the above methods described. The key to having it get unstuck is to have it done in a way that it is evolutionary, so the playing community can migrate over time and get used to the changes. Also added to the mix are 'mutators' which are meta-changes to how the game works that get added during play. PlunderChess, for example, is built on a mutator that is active from the start, pieces fusing together. Even these added can have an impact, and force people to think more creatively, relying on principles. These changes act as weather, and another key element to getting chess unstuck (and other abstract strategy games for that matter). All these elements help to battle to keep a game from getting stuck, without the use of random element, or hidden information, which is the standard method used to unstick a game. Like, the case of backgammon, luck prevents it from getting stuck for a long time. Stratego uses hidden information, and the bluff element causes players to play other players. In this you need to know your opponent more than the environment. Because of this, a game like poker can be played even 1000 years from now, because you play the players, and luck also offsets (hidden information+luck). Magic: The Gathering, and also Cosmic Encounter also relate to this, which has in its makeup things that continue to change the rules. I believe such mutators can be applied to a game like chess, but not in such a chaotic manner. In other words, you can have a game that is a pure abstract strategy game, but where the rules do change during the course of a game, if the players control when the rules come into effect and the potential rules are fully known by all players in the game. Please feel free to comment here.
Singh, I will add your comment to the Unsticking Chess thread and reply there, regarding the paradigm. As far as The IAGO Chess System goes, may I suggest people give it thought as being one of the pieces to the new paradigm, and happen to come up with their own suggestions, modifications of what the IAGO Chess System says, or point out the flaws? At least discuss this. On this, I welcome people to comment about the different aspects of it. These being: 1. The classification system for types of chess. 2. The use of drops and gating to get new pieces on the board, and setting up the board to start. 3. The basic rules on how it uses drops and gating, and how the C-Class transforms to the C-Class, then to the M-Class, and and then is able to produce a V-Class version/variant of the M-Class rules. I welcome feedback, people to adopt, reject, debate, etc... I will say, however, my wish is that people not ignore this completely.
In another thread, Singh wrote: Not a member, so responding to 'Unsticking Chess' here. Regarding: 'doing all of the above should likely buy chess another 1000 years' In my opinion, not even close. As soon as someone designs a computer smart enough to improve itself, processing power explodes exponentially. The future is going to be way, way different than anything we can imagine using the current paradigm. ----------------------------------------------------- This is why I was starting a discussion on what that paradigm can be. I personally believe that the open-source method would lend well towards this, via community consensus. This could start with the chess variant crowd, and them coordinating. I am offer people a chance to discuss the IAGO Chess System as a starting point, from the drops and gating, to the classification system, to the attempt to get Capablanca pieces onto an 8x8 board. This could perhaps lead to a new paradigm. I would rather this be an opening for a discussion, rather than saying it is merely beyond what we can imagine, so why bother. Finally, I would say that all this is for more than just 'oh it lies beyond the computer'. It is for the purpose of serving the fullness of the chess community.
je ju, when you happened to finalize this, please make sure we have a web page people can land on to learn about the tournament, and have it link back to the IAGO World Tour site.
Singh, can I give you the perspective that the IAGO Chess System comes from? It is a framework for an attempt to integrate variants into an association that promotes abstract strategy games, and insure that the play doesn't deadend so chess that is played is stuck in the margins. It is meant as a practical solution, not as some, 'WOW that blows me away as new'. It isn't meant to blow anyone away, but work. That is its intent. Anyhow, if your view is one of that it will happen, and we can't do anything about it, so don't try, then that doesn't fit anywhere into the IAGO Chess discussion. What I will say is that, in order for what you suggest to happen, it has to get there incrementally, and in a framework that will allow it. A sudden jump isn't going to happen. People won't jump all at once to something new, and abandon what they know. It will have to happen in an evolutionary manner. If you care to explain how FIDE Chess framework would enable that, please state how. If you actually have any ideas to explain how it can come about, please state them. If you just know this, but can't state, then I would say to feel free to be a player in what develops, as a recipient, and leave it sat that.
Joe, I think you are fairly close. What IAGO/IAGO World Tour is trying to do is have abstract strategy games, as a collective whole, go through what poker has become, so we have a large-scale version of the poker craze, or what was seen in the 1970s with Chess. But it will pick up variants along the way. The point is to create an environment favorable for growth. This is also meant to coordinate with large scale abstract strategy games associations that are covering games with tens of millions of players worldwide to. As for what IAGO Chess is (aka, the IAGO Chess System) is maybe it is best to think of it as 'Chess in IAGO' rather than 'IAGO Chess'. It is meant as a way for IAGO to integrate variants and coordinate them playing together, to actually be an extension and support for the Chess Variants site. IAGO World Tour Enterprises (this is the business name for the IAGO World Tour) will be looking to promote the chess variants site, its tournaments, and so on. For this, the IAGO Chess System is meant to facilitate that in multiple ways, including having a version of Capablanca Chess on an 8x8 board that will be designed to integrate the world of Chess Variant pieces into it. The intent of that is for the community to help evolve it. It is meant to mainstream the variants community, by acting as an official body to give them credibility. It is something that my hope would be people give their two cents into to have it go right, not just stay on the sidelines and complain about this and that. And yes, one of the object is to finally get some real pieces for the variant community to have to facilitate their adoption. I would definitely like to have world championships of chess variants in physical locations somewhere, and having the real pieces helps. Getting an IAGO Store for sale would help also. But, of course, there will need to be a community that gets behind all this. Production runs of pieces will cost thousands of dollars to get going. As for why it is needed, please look around now and ask yourself if you are honestly happy with the state of things. Do you like things being small time and not able to acquire game equipment anywhere? Do you like actually having to make up game boards on the fly? And if you try to show them to people who don't play chess variants, do they actually want to play your game?
Gating has been added to the Wiki site: http://chessvariants.wikidot.com/pcp-tg:gating Please feel free to comment.
May I suggest a variation in Insane, which is Insane Pocket? What you do with Insane Pocket is whenever a start piece moves out, you put a random piece where the piece prior left. You could also use this to not only randomize and handicap by limiting what pieces each player gets. For example, the stronger player doesn't have a queen pieces to draw from, etc... Doing this gets at the same idea, but also teaches the less experience player the idea of pawn structure.
Sorry, I misread the rules. I thought you were randomly changing the pawns in front of the pieces. Anyhow, just thinking about this. It does look a bit like you are using a form of gating.
Here is a practical way to implement Insane: The idea inspired a bit to come up with a way to make this doable. Perhaps you have players end up having 6 reserve pieces. You can adjust accordingly as to what those pieces are based on the skill of the player. These pieces go on numbers 1-6. As a player moves a piece and it lands, you roll a die. Swap out the piece there with the random one in reserve. It has a similar effect, but also allows you to handicap. You could, for example, give the much weaker player 6 queens. The strong player has none. What I will say is Insane, to me, looks like it uses a form of gating: http://chessvariants.wikidot.com/pcp-tg:gating Insane looks like it uses the (d) form of gating. Players could fiddle with this so the desired outcome is more stable, but still has the surprise effect at the end. I will let others think on this a bit. Please comment.
All goes well, I will be looking to submit a Zillions adaptation (the zip file should contain two adaptions of IAGO Chess) next Friday. I will keep people posted on this. I will also look to do an V-Class/X-Class Zillions version of this that will contain multiple variants off it. One thing I would be interested in playing with is an 8x8 version of Grand Chess, using the basic rules to IAGO Chess. Please send me a message if you would like to get the Zip file early to play around with.
One of the issues I have with luck being a balancing mechanism for a weaker player, is if the stronger player has luck breaking their way, the weaker player is a lot worse off.
By the way, for people who want to try Insane Chess with real pieces, may want to consider checking out Steve Jackson's Proteus (I couldn't find it on the chess variant site): http://www.sjgames.com/proteus/ The pieces are dice.
George, I would like to make several comments here: 1. Gating is supposed to be a definition, and a subset of drops. I am sure there are lots of way to do this. The purpose of it is to give people an idea as to how it differs from a standard drop. It also involves the relocating pieces on the board. I am sure that people can come up with more. I believe the key is to have a stable definition, and then list some major examples. I am of the belief it is an important term to consider, debate, and reach an agreement over. The end and final shape isn't as important as what it is. 2. The issue of the 8x8 board is that it is now a convention, and a starting point, for testing, because it is what is readily available, and has an established chess game being played with millions of people play it (that being FIDE Chess). What was suggested is ONE approach to this, as a possible way. And no, I disagree with you on the less than 100 years approach. What is suggested is to use ALL the possible variant conventions as a way to expand chess here. This means reserves, it means mutators, it means different board condition. And with the reserves, it means changing the mix of pieces. It also means more that this. But what does matter is there is a common foundation this is all to fit into. Chess960 isn't going to get stuck in 100 years, why do you think a larger system will? If you suggest that it will get stuck again in 100 years, well then this site is doomed to be stuck within 100 years. As for the IAGO Chess System classes, well it is taking what is seen today as chess and variants, and expanding it, as a way to think about it. You have standard stuff (A-Class). Then it is suggested that there be an evolutionary design, that has a B-Class migration to it. C and M Class represent the slower fixed one, and the M-Class as the version where a chess game can migrate to. In the B-Class I am proposing that the piece mix map to the rules (so we don't have an 8 pawn promote to queens problem, which breaks when you add any more pieces). Then with the variants, I propose that you have a V-Class for accepted variants that work, along with mutators, and pieces. And an X-Class where things can be experimented with. This is meant as a starting point of discussion. 3. Anything that is a set of rules is axiomatic, as the definition of axiomatic is rules. So game rules would apply also. What Godel's incompleteness theorem says that no system of rules can be both complete and non-contradictory. In other words, every set of rules will end up producing more rules. In other words, rules keep evolving. This is valid here. And if you think that games have nothing to do with math, I am sure that the game theory people will be surprised. And Combinatorial Game Theorists (this is the foundation abstract strategy games are built on) would be shocked.
I happened to update the terms and conditions for use. Please provide feedback here. My attempt is to make this as flexible as possible for people, while preventing the effort to use this to fragment, and not create a center point of focus, which is essential to its success.
Also the B-Class and C-Class were fixed.
On the chessvariants wiki, I started a top regarding an Open-Source Chess of Tomorrow project. If you would like to discuss this and have actual input into what this might be please visit the Wiki discussion page: http://chessvariants.wikidot.com/forum/t-51667/chess-of-tomorrow-project-who-is-interested - Rich
I remember playing this as a straight up chess variant, where you moved one piece per turn, and it worked pretty well.
I am wondering if something could be added in order to allow the mobilization of more than one piece during a turn. Perhaps have a commander unit that mobilizes a bunch of pieces that are near it, like Joe Joyce uses in his Chieftain Chess: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSchieftainchess
This is now on Boardgame Geek: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/35433
I would like to run this concept as part of the Chess of Tomorrow project. Someone in discussing the future of chess, brought up Calvinball. The posted a link to one set of rules: http://www.bartel.org/calvinball/ There is one permanent rule they have for Calvinball on that page. That rule is this one: You may not play the Calvinball the same way twice. So the basic framework for the ultimate chess variant would be, can you have a chess playing framework that would enable a person to NEVER play chess the same way twice (by the exact same set of rules). A softer version of this challenge would be that a person would play both side (black and white) each once, before moving on to a set of rules. A Calvinball tournament would consist of this rules though. Please feel free to discuss this hear, or if you want it to add to the Chess of Tomorrow project, post in here: http://chessvariants.wikidot.com/forum/t-51667/chess-of-tomorrow-project-who-is-interested#post-139883
The whole 'Calvinball Chess' question is one that raises the natural boundaries of chess variants. Is the number of variants to a game finite (bounded) or infinite (unbounded). If it is finite, unless you add luck element to it, then all variants naturally are solvable. However, if it is infinite, then that game is not solvable. Well, perhaps someone can find an underlying core direction that will universally say one side or another is solved or not. The point is that it is a THEORETICAL question asked. It, by itself, isn't the best form of chess. But it is meant to be a test for whether or not variants themselves are deadend. By the way, as far as a 'sense of accomplishment' goes, it is a game. You defeat your opponent. If you end up the top dog by being the best player, and being champion, that is the sense of accomplishment. One can get a sense of accomplishment from mastering an OPPONENT over mastering a particular set of RULES. Can I add here that when it comes to war (this is what chess is an abstracted model of), that no battle ever fought is the same? It is 'Heraclitian' in that the conditions to start the battle are never the same, and they change in the battle, independent of what the troops do. Yet, great generals are able to be evaluated.
George, I think you are getting at the scope of what I am thinking about regarding Calvinball Chess. Of course, this is an extreme expression of the scope of the chess here, in that someone would NEVER play with the same set of rules twice (this includes the use of mutators). But that is meant as a way to see the theoretical bounds. Actually, what I am looking at with the 'Chess of Tomorrow' project is to bring all these methods together, coordinate and so on, and have a way for them to come into practice, so best of breed rises up. This would be a Superset of what IAGO Chess System (which is a Superset of IAGO Chess, the game). And in this, I would propose it as part of the solution, with the community and people involved modifying what is needed. The answer should be from practical experience, not ego or anything else. Of course, in all this, and mutators, a way that the rules can be varied further is by a timing element involving the introduction of when mutators would come into play, and also when new pieces enter the board. Even changing the turn order by a few moves, delaying or requiring, results in a different game. The Calvinball angle adds a timing mechanism that effect when rules come into play. And in all this, would be a general study of chess strategy, finding what the universal principles are, and their exceptions. By the way George, you come down on the side that Calvinball is theoretically possible, in that a game can have an infinite number of variants for it?
When you are looking at that many pieces, my take is being able to move more than one piece per turn is a must. One could even mix this up a bit by having commander pieces that, if capture, reduce the amount of moves you get per turn by one. So, if you have 4 moves per turn, if you capture on, the number of moves is reduced to 3, etc... These commanders could actually replace the King piece. I am borrowing a bit from Chieftain Chess here, but so be it. It is just an idea. I actually dabbled with this concept awhile back with Conquest, in a variant where you only moved so many pieces per turn, and had number of moves reduced with each section of the enemy fort that was captured.
George, do you mean the simple fact that you can have an infinite number of boards for chess is proof of this? Aka, a board can theoretically by infinite size? Ok, let's say we limit the board, for discussion sake to an 8x8 board (standard chess size). Can such a game using an 8x8 board (standard chess, not movable tiles) be infinite in the number of variations? At this point also, I would then like to ask, what fixed set of rules would be needed to still identify the game as chess, and allow for infinite variations? Hey, here is a good question to ponder regarding this: What rules are by their nature unbounded that they cause a game to have infinite variety of rules associated with them? One could argue that board size is one. But what other ones?
There is a separate entry, on here, that looks at the way can be unbounded, and could produce an infinite number of variants, based on a change in how he rules are set up. I will have to ask whether or not turn-order is finite or infinite. It might be show that a player moving N moves in a row, could always win a game. This would then put a natural boundary, and would not be infinite.
You can find that thread here:
http://www.chessvariants.org/index/listcomments.php?subjectid=UnboundChessList
This then points to the Chess of Tomorrow Project Wiki site entry here:
http://chessvariants.wikidot.com/forum/t-51667/chess-of-tomorrow-project-who-is-interested#post-140383
So, the idea of this part of the Chess of Tomorrow Project is to look at what elements of chess would be able to produce a Calvinball (never play with the same rules twice) Chess, verses being finite.
I welcome any other people to contribute here to input into this and see what may or may not fit. The Wikidot entry would be appropriate place to go.
This list is an attempt to come up with different aspects to the rules of chess that could produce an unlimited (unbounded) number of variants based upon changing the parameters around this rule type. Please suggest more if you can, or critique. I will look to update this as time goes on. I see this so far: 1. Board size and shape. A board can theoretically be infinite in size. Because of this, it can theoretically take on an infinite number of shapes (shapes representing the number of spaces it has, and where they are located). 2. The number of players (and also number of teams). 3. Time control: Amount of time each player has to play. 4. Play to points in a chess tournament: Players can play to an infinite number of points. Probably unbounded (no sure): * Turn order and sequence of play. This is based off the way progression works. There may be a limit to how many times a player can move in a row, given a minimum number of pieces, which the victory conditions can always be met. In light of this, this may not be infinite. Some that I am uncertain about: * The number of unique pieces. Is there an infinite number of ways a piece can act on a chessboard? * Number of pieces on a board and their mix. If a board is finite size, then this should mean there can only be so many piece combinations on a board, right? * Reserve pool mix. It is theoretically possible that you can have an infinitely large reserve of pieces that can be dropped in from every turn, but I would argue there is the possibility for a board to get clogged up with so many pieces, that it isn't infinite. Even shuffling the reserve doesn't resolve. * Adding new rule types. Are there really an unlimited number of different rule types that can be added to chess, that make it unlimited. What I don't see as unlimited: * Shuffles. Unless you have a theoretical unlimited number of pieces on an infinitely wide board, it doesn't look infinite to me. * Piece names and look. This doesn't functionally change how a game is played. * Board colors. Unless the rules governing pieces is governed by color of the board, this is irrelevant to how the game is played. * Space shape. I would argue there is only a finite number of ways that spaces can be fit together that they would fit together. Now, the combination of these pieces definitely could potentially fit under the unlimited category. Please reply with others and comment. You can also go to the Chess of Tomorrow Project Thread to discuss this more there: http://chessvariants.wikidot.com/forum/t-51667/chess-of-tomorrow-project-who-is-interested#post-140383
Interesting articles there. They still run into the exact same issues variants run into, they are considered abnormal freaks people are wary of.
There is also Many Rules chess (Someone suggested this be checked out): http://www.chessvariants.org/other.dir/manyrules.html All this I see as part of the Chess of Tomorrow project that can be worked on. Good to know what can be bounded verses unbounded and so on.
The next challenge, get this up to be infinite. You could also go with drops and gating that even add more pieces to it, and change when they come in, and create a reserve. One could also go with the idea of mutators that enter the game at different times. Did we even begin to discuss the board that it could be played on? We could even vary the boards here. So, he idea is mutators, shuffle, drops and gating, different pieces, etc... to end up with a different game. So, what else can be added to make it infinite? I believe to have this, is that ONE element that is infinite get added to the mix. This should be a practical element that can be implemented. May I suggest people also take this discussion to the Chess of Tomorrow project Wiki discussion to discuss going infinite? http://chessvariants.wikidot.com/forum/t-51667/chess-of-tomorrow-project-who-is-interested This would fit under the Calvinball/Hericlitian Chess idea that it is possible for humanity, given endless time, to never play chess with the same rules twice.
My take on Beyond Chess, if players at the start of the game are able to follow those rules, and they aren't stopped, then doesn't that represent merely one rule in effect? This means the rules itself are still bound, with Beyond Chess merely adding one new rule. Yes, this rule adds a lot of depth to the game, but it is still one rule. Difference would be the slide before you move, slide after you move, transport tile elsewhere, having tiles disappear, etc... Different starting configurations would each be considered a different rule. But the sliding a tile after a move, to me, looks like a mutator, and thus one rule. Now, let's say you start restricting when this sliding can take effect, and to what degree, that that would add more rules. The idea here isn't just asking if the decision tree can be unlimited, but the RULES governing the decision tree is unlimited.
Please let me know what the final page will be that I can point the Tour calendar to regarding it?
Ok now here. There will ONLY be a photo if someone takes a snapshot of the winner. As far as prizes go, you guys need to get me something a film studio would want to film. I need wacky nicknames (or at least something with a pasty name twice :-)). We have a Double Donut. Anyone else want to be DanishDanish (please, I hope no offense here. I already ticked off several chess grandmasters)? I also need some sort of page to point this two. I will get something up on BoardGameGeek also, once we are set, but please get me a page now with the info for it. If it is this thread, let me know. I would personally rather have a page with just the event info, and no information on how many are participating. Every event on the Tour schedule should look alike in this regard. Just my 2 cents...
Please give a bit of thought to what you want for user names or nicknames. In event we ever get anything on TV, they will be having these nicknames in with your name, like 'Devilfish', 'Jesus', and 'The Poker Brat'. Of course, not everyone needs them, but think how you want yourself to come off. I will say the nicknames are not mandatory, but could be useful.
I am under the impression that Chess operated under a ban by the Catholic Church, because they likely found people spending far too much time playing it, and was picking up a gambling angle (the use of dice in some versions, and also probably betting). The Church likely judged that chess was an unproductive use of time, and banned it. As for the war analogy, this is my take, but you did happen to find the ruling class using it to train in strategy and movement. You can also argue that perhaps it was a divination device for kings to determine outcome of battles (aka a wargame). This then also might be another call for the ban by the Catholic Church regarding chess.
I have been playing around with this in Zillions, adding Capablanca pieces and found it is a very interesting design. I am planning on having this game modified to the IAGO Chess System framework, complete with Capablanca pieces in it, in the next few weeks. I am doing this entry separately to discuss it, as I happened to also stumble across it while working on an attempt to port Grand Chess to an 8x8 board.
Want to have a streamlined (less kludgy) version of chess with enough depth to it that you won't get bored as you teach newbies? You want to have it so that they are also open to variants? A newbie should be able to get going fully in less than 5 minutes. Well, consider Skirmish Chess (this game), with the following changes: When you teach the game, don't teach castling, and en passant is moot here (it doesn't have it). Also pawns only move one way. Also go with capture the enemy king instead of checkmate. Also, limit promotion to the basic set of pieces. You have a decent game that will be able to entertain yourself, and get people playing a form of chess that isn't trivial, and will get them going. I believe this version would appeal to newbies, because it has a lot of action early in it, and a bunch of captures. It should be noted that the changes above were added to Skirmish Chess, for a new variant called 'Near Chess'. It is entered into the CV site and can be found here: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSnearchess
The best way to go about this is to have a pass around the list thing to see who would want to go for it, and how many pieces. Then once enough people sign up, take orders. Then they do the run, get the molds made and able to facilitate this. Of course, we are going to need people to commit to this. Don't assume there is some sort of rich uncle of the variant community who is going to do this out of the goodness of their heart. Assume that the community needs to get behind it. On this note, I would like to see people speak up here. Are people willing to get behind this project? Please speak up here. I know I want to get ahold them. I would rather use distinct pieces than go with using PlunderChess, etc... Let's see the benefits of this. You could do variant tournaments at conventions and actually have the real pieces for people to use. Well, that is my take here. Who else would be interested. I can assure you this, if there is enough interest, I do know that the pieces can become reality.
As for myself: Q#1: How many people would actually buy variant pieces, for about $2 - $3 per piece? Q#2: How many pieces would you buy? I would look to get 1 or 2 each of the Capablanca pieces, likely a Cannon, and maybe one of whatever else is available. Q#3: How much would you really spend in that order? I would probably go as high as $50 or so, excluding shipping. Q#4: What pieces would you like to see made? Myself, I would like to see this: 1. The Knight+Rook 2. The Knight+Bishop 3. The Knight+Queen 4. Cannon or Catapult 5. A second type of pawn 6. A Super Knight 7. Chariot (this perhaps could double as the Knight+Rook) I personally would like to see 3D Chinese Chess pieces myself that can double as the variant pieces. What is described above could fit that. That is me perhaps though. Maybe other people have other ideas here, like an Elephant (Afil).
I would like to add that John Kipling Lewis thought of this same variant on Skirmish Chess as I had, so I wanted to give him credit. He is looking to have a version where the board is only 6 rows big, which makes it different than this version. I will let him decide what to call it.
Hey, let's also go with an 8x8 board, a 8x9 and an 8x10 board. Shoot, you could also go all the way up to 8x14 or 8x16, giving the starting positions a larger back row space (as is seen in Skirmish Chess and Near Chess). You could also push the pieces forward or back more.
The event page: http://chessvariants.wikidot.com/cv-potluck-2008 Is now up on the IAGO World Tour schedule: http://www.iagoworldtour.com/ I will also get the games into the officially registered with IAGO list.
I don't get this, and I am pondering CalvinBall at this point.
Matthew, are you capable now of making custom pieces for people? Please feel free to offer your services now to people to do this. Longer term, perhaps a commercial version would be viable. In the mean time, I personally don't have any issues with you doing this. If things, IAGO related work out where we get a supplier, then maybe. But, so long as you can serve the needs of the community, please feel free to consider helping out. Anyone else have objections to what Matthew spoke on? I personally don't at this point. Even if there is mass production of variant pieces, then the community will be wanting more obscure ones. So, at this point, I don't see any issue now. This may change down the road though. By the way, what country are you located?
Anyone here know how to tell the Courier preset the following rules: King capture for win no castling pawn promotion to your captured pieces only I am curious how to have the rule say that so. Any ideas?
Is this actually a game? Looks more like theory to me.
Hey, I believe Stanley Random Chess relates to this question somehow: http://www.chessvariants.org/link2.dir/srchess.html Or maybe a way to phrase this is whether Stanley Random Chess would actually have any Unbound rules to it.
I believe this has to be connected to Stanley Random Chess somehow: http://www.chessvariants.org/link2.dir/srchess.html
Why do I have a feeling this is connected to CalvinBall Chess somehow: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/listcomments.php?subjectid=Calvinball+Chess
I think in this is perhaps a way that could be used to demonstrate chess on television, and relative positions. It likely needs to be reworked, and if there is math involved, the variables explained, else this falls into the Stanley Random Chess category, which is closer to the comic strip Calvinball than the theoretical Heraclitian Calvinball I had asked about. Anyone have any ideas on how this could potentially be used to demonstrate positions in chess that are about to collapse and fail? Maybe I can come up with something, or other people have ideas.
There is a Zillions adaptation of the IAGO Chess game at: http://www.zillionsofgames.com/cgi-bin/zilligames/submissions.cgi/17624?do=show;id=1576
Just to repeat what was added above. There is a Zillions adaptation of Near Chess, with a bunch of variants. The direct link is here: http://www.zillionsofgames.com/cgi-bin/zilligames/submissions.cgi/18477?do=show;id=1577
My take on this, is that Mornington Crescent, and is a bit like Calvinball. I would consider SRC to be the Mornington Crescent of Chess games, a bit of an inside joke actually. I will say that it does serve a useful purpose of showing people who play a game like chess, or even a particularly variant, what their game sounds like to those who don't know about it. So, on this note, we can use this comment here as a note that SRC is very likely a joke. The funny thing is someone I have messaged on BGG said they were responsible for its creation.
Can I again run this by everyone? I know people say they can cut and stick and so on. But if you happen to play someone a game, and they like it, how will they be able to get the equipment to play it by themselves?
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Can I explain another reason why having commercially available variant pieces would help here? Most game purchases are done as gifts, either for birthday or Christmas. In order to facilitate the growth of variants, it is going to be important to allow people to buy the equipment to give other people as a gift. This also would allow the variant community to give someone variant pieces as a gift. Like, let's say you do have a variant, and you know people happened to like a design of yours. If you have pieces and equipment available for sale, you could buy it for them as a gift. Without this, what happens with variants is people find it a one-time novel experience. A one-time novel experience doesn't grow interest in variants. On this note, would people here be willing to buy chess variant pieces for other people, to give as gifts? Shoot, you could even do some custom jobs where you get to name the piece after a person, give it some wacky power that is customized, and particular, as a gag gift. Like the 'Steve' piece. It has the power to move like a Knight (because it has noble intentions) but has the power to freeze other pieces next to it, through the power of 'smalltalk' preventing them from moving. So, these would be gag gift pieces you can give people. I am sure there is a Steve out there somewhere (I don't have anyone in mind by refering it). So, when people play a customized variant chess, they can use their own custom piece instead of the queen, or replacing the king if doing extinction.
My take here on this is as follows: 1. Chess has multiple issues. Draws are one. Another is stale opening lines, that have pushed out innovation further in the game, making it less appealing. 2. I believe we should stop with this proposing that every single proposed rule change be a new version of chess. Can we have a category called 'sub-variant' or something else, for things like Braves' Chess? Such things that Braves Chess attempts to do is important. It needs to be something experimented with as a sub-variant, mutator, or whatever else we want to call it. It is an end-game fix mutation. Maybe call it a patch. 3. I like a bit what is done here, but my take on the end game drawishness would be several things: a. Get rid of draws have a score of 1/2 - 1/2. Have it worth zero points or have it so that it is a 1/2 point score for black, if going to add 1 point minor victory conditions. Have a win worth 2 points (this is 2 points for a win, if the following are done below). b. Get rid of checkmate and replace it with capturing the king. This means no more stalemate. If you do want to play with stalemate and checkmate, then a stalemate is worth 1/2 point for the player who stalemated their opponent. c. Count barring the king as a 1 point victory (1/2 point for draw). In other words, add a minor victory condition. As for the stale opening book, use pocket pieces with a variable mix of pieces (drops and gating to get them on) and shuffles. I believe if you do this, then both the beginning and end game issues with chess will be resolved. You can see these ideas expanded upon here: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/displaycomment.php?commentid=19128 By the way, is there any reason why the variant community should NOT consider implementing some standardized anti-draw procedures between all their games? Consider what I stated above, for example. Why not have it so that a variant will NEVER run into draw issues, no matter how much it is played out. Also consider what was stated above also as a standard way to address all these issues to. Such standard way can be deviated from, if shown to be otherwise. But I would suggest people NOT have hubris in believing that a variant is so great, that it will NEVER face draw issues.
Here is my take on stale openings and the issues of draws with chess. 1. Chess has multiple issues. Draws are one. Another is stale opening lines, that have pushed out innovation further in the game, making it less appealing. 2. I believe we should stop with this proposing that every single proposed rule change be a new version of chess. Can we have a category called 'sub-variant' or something else, for things like Braves' Chess? Such things that Braves Chess attempts to do is important. It needs to be something experimented with as a sub-variant, mutator, or whatever else we want to call it. It is an end-game fix mutation. Maybe call it a patch. 3. I like a bit what is done here, but my take on the end game drawishness would be several things (well, besides ending drawishness, at least having a draw still count as something that gets a player some points): a. Get rid of draws have a score of 1/2 - 1/2. Have it worth zero points or have it so that it is a 1/2 point score for black. Have a win worth 2 points (this is 2 points for a win, if the following are done below, otherwise a win is 1 point). Given the below rules, here will be very few games where a situation would arise that a chess match is not advanced. b. Get rid of checkmate and replace it with capturing the king. This means no more stalemate. If you do want to play with stalemate and checkmate, then a stalemate is worth 1 point for the player who stalemated their opponent. c. Count 3 move check repetition as a 1 point (minor) victory for the player who checks their opponent's king 3 times. d. In event of of a 3 move repetition on a rare chance that it is mutual checking back and forth, that would end up counting as a victory for the first player to get the 3 checks in at the same time, and it is worth 1/2 point. e. In the event of a 3 move repetition where neither side checks the other king, the player who goes second to cause a third move repetition would end up losing, awarding their opponent 1/2 points. f. Count barring the king as a 1 point victory. In other words, add multiple levels of victory condition with different points. As for the stale opening book, use pocket pieces that could vary game to game, and they would get on the board by means of drops and gating. Drops could be used before the game in a set up zone, or later in the game into a set-up zone (drops and gating to get them on). Later in the game, both gating and drops could be used. For preset pieces on the board, you would use a shuffle. The default shuffle is the 960 version found in Fisher Random Chess. I believe if you do this, then both the beginning and end game issues with chess will be resolved. Please comment here.
Over 60% of chess tournaments are ending in draws on the highest level. That looks like a problem to me.
One thing I would suggest here is... STOP POSTING AN IDEA OR THREE TOGETHER TO FIX THE STALE OPENING OR DRAWISH ENDGAME AS A NEW GAME (or game variant)! Ok, I said it. If there is one thing, and only one thing that I would ask people to agree to on this subject, is that there come up with two lists: One for how to mix up the openings, and another to reduce draws. Have these as a codified list of some sort (call them mutators). Players playing a variant can agree to which of these can be used between them, and people play them. This goes from shuffles to gating for openings to no more stalemate, barring the king, etc... for the end game. Let people pick and choose from the list and see. Play a LOT of games to see what works, and perhaps come up with a values for the end game conditions to be worth. My take on all this variant talk is there is far too much proposing and not enough testing for what works. So, everyone has what they think is a brilliant idea, and it is tossed into a pile with a bunch of others, not tested to see if it works or not. And then, you have another camp, even among variants people who say everything is just jim dandy, eventhough these things people think are ok with chess now, weren't in there prior to the mad queen. Things I suggested about barring the king, and getting rid of stalemate were actually reverting back to pre-mad queen days. These elements were considered minor victories back then. But, when the mad queen got introduced, everyone thought chess was so fantastic, they decide to go with stalemate and also get rid of barring the king because 'it is not needed' because people saw the firepower and thought that Look at the rules to Shatranj, what chess was before the mad queen, if you don't believe me: http://www.chessvariants.org/historic.dir/shatranj.html # Stalemate counts as a win. # Bare King counts as a win, provided that your King cannot be bared on the very next move. (See below.) Again, if you want to do deal with issues, how about going pre-mad queen chess and bringing things back? For those who suggest what I said is to radical, what can I say here except maybe people have been conditioned by habit. I don't think being conditioned by habit is a think a person who is into variants should use to justify why something is. Such talk is like a local Speed Chess club I know, lamenting that Speed Chess wasn't taken seriously, why they managed to frown upon anything else.
I would like to comment here that I find it interesting that proposals to add some of the win conditions from Shatranj to regular chess are seen as 'too radical'. Here I mean no stalemate and barring the king. I am curious why anyone would feel that, particularly when they play variants? If these actually reduce the number of draws, why not use it in variants?
Sofia rule, which you wrote of, apparently reduced the number of draws by less than 5%: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4553 My question is, even if the number of draws ends up being 45-50% why is this still acceptable?
I am curious here regarding draws. Should we be viewing the solution to draws to be merely another specific game? Or, can we do something with how game conditions are scored over variants in general (start with a baseline) that would end up address possible draw issues with all them. You can have a default starting place, and variants are free to do this. Perhaps we could end up using a different default position than FIDE chess. How about we look to Shatranj for example, and what it had, and use that as the starting point? Maybe extend it some to account for more modern play. Just an idea here.
Ok, looks like we are building up a list of issues chess faces. Let's review thus far: 1. Stale openings 2. Drawishness 3. Computers outthinking humans. How about we also look at other issues relating to this? Like some of these isses: 4. Chess is boring people who don't know it and not getting their interest. It is facing a growth problem, and it doesn't captivate non-chess players. Pretty much the world outside the chess world knows what chess is but doesn't care about it. It faces an issue with getting youths interested, with it using 'education' as a supposed hook to get tax dollars spent on it. Yes, it is pitched as some form of getting smarter, that you want to get your kids into. It isn't a fun thing in its own right, but is something that is supposed to fix schools and improve science scores. Yes, chess has gotten into the 'infotainment' business, because it isn't captivating based on its own merits (had it been done right, it could do that). 5. You can also add to the mix here that chess ends up being people playing the game, rather than playing the player. Well, if they are playing the player, people don't see this. People see chess as something they want to master, rather than a battlefield where they can demonstrate they master their opponent. Games like poker, which get on TV have player vs player to them. Chess is more like player vs board. Only when it was Fischer vs the Russian Chess Machine (Bobby as defender of the free world), did people care outside of chess, and chess popularity exploded, bring a flock of new players to the game. When something gets like this, it generates new players (for example, number of poker players has doubled since the pocket cam entered into poker programming in North America). 6. Can you also add to the mix that no one has figured out how to make chess sustainable on TV either? 7. Political infighting. Can we sum up by just saying that chess in its current state is stale? That is an issue that encompasses a lot, and leads to a lot of political infighting. And those who say, eventhough people still do footraces while there are cars and trains, physical or not, if no one outside of those involved cares or is interested, then what? Sure, a computer can solve Sudoku puzzles faster than a human. Humans still can play it. People like Sudoku, so the whole computer beats humans isn't that important of an issue. It is a state of staleness that produces 60% draws on the highest level and squabbling over a few percentages getting it down (aka, thinking Sofia's rule is the answer, and thinking that your scoring system that rewards players drawing will suddenly cause players not to game it and draw less). It is shooting down just about every idea, and resting on your laurels thinking the next Bobby Fischer will show up to save the day. It is also saying, 'What is wrong with 60% draws? So long as it isn't early offering of draws and they are 'fought out' that is ok'.' In other words, things are the way they are, handed down by the divine, so let's not question it at all. If such is a reason for things being stale, who is each person to question it? It is thinking in the area of intellectual competition, you have no other peers (nevermind that Go and other games will be making inroads, and kids play real-time strategy games). It is then whining you don't get the respect you deserve, because you think your being around so long means you will remain forever. And it is being upset at 'mindless' poker getting the attention and money instead of chess. I would say the issues of chess are just a TAD larger than whether or not there is a draw issue, or the opening book is stale. The variant community could actually help to fix a lot of these issues, if it was allowed into the conversation, and if it believed it could actually help to fix things. The variant community, working towards this end could help to revive chess, in multiple forms, making things exciting again. But, if things are going to be just a bunch of artists on separate islands passing notes in a bottle, then we may not see much going on. Not to say that this is the case, but it is easy to end up keeping to oneself, and one's own ideas. I know this from personal experience. Just my two cents. And if you think it is worth less than that, well that is your choice :-)
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