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Parahouse. Members-Only Shogi + Strong pieces. (9x9, Cells: 81) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]

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Decimaka (revised). Game where pieces promote on making a capture. (10x10) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
💡📝H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, May 21, 2022 08:18 AM UTC:

I now also upgraded the general Diagram script to get more realistic piece values for this variant. It had a rather complex algorithm for determining the contribution of promotability to the piece value. Which would determine the ease of promotion based on counting the fraction of moves that would enter the promotion zone in (randomly generated) test positions, and assume the product of this ease and the promotion gain would determine the probability that this piece would indeed promote during the game. (Assuming that pieces with a less attractive promotion prospects would have to be traded away to clear the way for that.) This of course gave rather non-sensical results if there was no promotion zone at all. In that case the Diagram now assumes promotion on capture for promotable pieces (as specified by maxPromote). It then adds 50% of the promotion gain if this is positive, and subtracts 10% of the devaluation if it is a demotion (assuming there are ways to avoid it, but that this avoidance does make the piece less useful).


Pandemonium (Surajang修羅場). Capablanca chess + Crazyhouse.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
💡📝Daphne Snowmoon wrote on Sat, May 21, 2022 07:22 AM UTC:

I added 'Campmate'.


Parahouse. Members-Only Shogi + Strong pieces. (9x9, Cells: 81) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]

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ArchMage Chess. 10x10 30v30 Fantasy Chess. (10x10, Cells: 100) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Greg Strong wrote on Fri, May 20, 2022 08:20 PM UTC in reply to Daniel Zacharias from 07:37 PM:

@Daniel,

Now there's an interesting idea!


Daniel Zacharias wrote on Fri, May 20, 2022 07:37 PM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from 06:36 PM:

The suggested changes to the summoning rule seem overly complicated to me. I would suggest instead making the summoned pieces switch sides when captured, like shogi pieces. Then the players would want to be careful about losing the demon, since that would allow the opponent to summon it later. If you want losing a summoner to be more consequential, a captured demon could only switch sides if the capturing player still has the right piece to summon it back.


Samuel Trenholme wrote on Fri, May 20, 2022 07:22 PM UTC in reply to Fergus Duniho from 07:11 PM:

Summoning looks really overpowered, and we’re trying to figure out if we can keep the mechanic without it ruining the game.

Some ideas:

  • Summoning just puts a piece on the board once in the game, akin to Seirawan (Sharper) chess.
  • My proposal to give the other player an extra move after a summoning is done.

I mentioned Zillions, but, of course, Fairy Max might be able to implement the summoning mechanic to playtest just what compensation we need to give the other player when invoked (unrestricted extra move, restricted extra move, etc.).


🕸Fergus Duniho wrote on Fri, May 20, 2022 07:11 PM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from 06:36 PM:

There is nothing wrong with the mechanism of summoning itself. What wrecks things is that you automatically get the Demon back in hand when it gets captured.

Compared to how other pieces normally put themselves at risk when capturing a piece, this is like giving one piece a WMD. So, I would propose putting some kind of restriction or limitation on this.

Giving the opponent two moves, knowing that he has those, is too costly, though.

Where does this come in? Summoning is a full move, and I didn't see any mention of lettings players move twice in a turn.

Nevermind. I see it is a cost to summoning that Sam proposed. It's not in the creator's description of the game.


Samuel Trenholme wrote on Fri, May 20, 2022 07:10 PM UTC in reply to Bn Em from 06:52 PM:

Since I didn’t make this clear: The opponent wouldn’t get to keep their extra move “in pocket”. When a summoning is done, the opponent then makes two moves immediately afterwards.

It’s true an extra move is very powerful, but having a replaceable piece which is only fully removed from the game when the summoner is captured is very powerful too. [1] If the two moves end up being too much compensation for the summoned piece, we can hobble that too (the extra move can not capture, one piece can not move twice, etc.)

I agree we need some playtesting to here to find out how much compensation we give the other player for the summoned piece getting placed on the board. It’s like changing the king’s move or how the pawns move: It changes the nature of the game enough that extensive playtesting is needed to see if it unbalances the game to the point it’s a forced win for the first player, or (especially if making the king too powerful) if it makes the game an easy draw.

This is also why I still like Zillions, some two decades after the program was last updated: Zillions is a relatively easy way to playtest game mechanics like this one.

[1] A game with summoning and drops can make the summoning less unbalanced too, since we can come up with some way of combining those mechanics to balance the summoning. Another option is to go the Seirawan route and only allow a summoning of a piece to be done precisely once.


Bn Em wrote on Fri, May 20, 2022 06:52 PM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from 06:36 PM:

Giving the opponent two moves, knowing that he has those, is too costly, though. In the opening you might get away with it, but in a typical middle-game position the opponent would use those to make a hit-and-run capture.

To be fair, Fergus' solution to that issue is quite elegant imo, and even just restricting two consecutive moves by a single piece alleviates hit‐and‐runs per se. It may be getting away from the intended point of this variant to introduce a whole nother idea but it seems like a usable way of introducing multi‐moves into a mostly‐single‐move game without breaking things too much


Parahouse. Members-Only Shogi + Strong pieces. (9x9, Cells: 81) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]

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ArchMage Chess. 10x10 30v30 Fantasy Chess. (10x10, Cells: 100) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
H. G. Muller wrote on Fri, May 20, 2022 06:36 PM UTC:

There is nothing wrong with the mechanism of summoning itself. What wrecks things is that you automatically get the Demon back in hand when it gets captured. That effectively makes it an 'iron piece'. Giving the opponent two moves, knowing that he has those, is too costly, though. In the opening you might get away with it, but in a typical middle-game position the opponent would use those to make a hit-and-run capture.

Furthermore, summoning a Demon for free seems too easy; in horror stories one typically has to make some sacrifice as part of a summoning ritual. Using this concept the following might work: to summon a Demon, the Mage should first capture a friendly piece. That will then 'activate' him for summoning a Demon in the next turn. But depending on what the opponent does in his turn, you might pass on the opportunity to summon, and do something else. That would waste the opportunity to summon, and you would only regain it by capturing another friendly piece.


Parahouse. Members-Only Shogi + Strong pieces. (9x9, Cells: 81) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]

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Decimaka (revised). Game where pieces promote on making a capture. (10x10) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
🕸Fergus Duniho wrote on Fri, May 20, 2022 04:32 PM UTC:

This is looking better now, and I have unhid it.


Parahouse. Members-Only Shogi + Strong pieces. (9x9, Cells: 81) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]

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DrZ's Chess. Members-Only Chess with a 3rd row added behind and new pieces. (8x10, Cells: 80) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]

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ArchMage Chess. 10x10 30v30 Fantasy Chess. (10x10, Cells: 100) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Samuel Trenholme wrote on Fri, May 20, 2022 03:59 PM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from 01:51 PM:

“I am starting to suspect that this summoning business will sort of spoil the game. Because you get the Demons back whenever you lose them, at the cost of only a tempo.”

One thought I have been having is to make a summon cost two tempo: You can summon a piece, but when you do, your opponent gets an extra move.

Let’s imagine, for the sake of simplicity, a Seirawan Chess variant where instead of the “add the piece when moving a piece in the back rank” rule, the knight can summon the Elephant (Seirawan’s nomenclature for the R+N Cardinal/Marshal) next to it, and a bishop can summon a hawk (B+N, i.e. Archbishop), but each time a summoning is done it costs two tempo.

Here’s how a game could start out:

  1. Nf3 d5
  2. E@g3 e5,Nf6

We could write the score like this too, if preferred:

  1. Nf3 d5
  2. E@g3 e5
  3. (Tempo lost after summoning) Nf6

Here, White opens with Nf3, Black responds d5

Next, White summons an Elephant on to g3 (I’m using Crazyhouse notation, which is fitting because Seirawan himself frequently plays Crazyhouse on Lichess). Because White has performed a summoning, Black now gets a bonus move, so Black moves e5 then Nf6.

If the other player responds to the summoning with a summoning as their first move, they don’t get the second bonus move. If they respond to the summoning with a summoning on their bonus move, the other player gets a bonus move, e.g.:

  1. Nf3 Nc6
  2. E@g3 E@b6

or

  1. Nf3 Nc6
  2. E@g3 d5,E@b6
  3. e4,d4

I think the summoning mechanic is very unique and creative, but it might give White a won game, but maybe we can hobble it to keep it usable.


DrZ's Chess. Members-Only Chess with a 3rd row added behind and new pieces. (8x10, Cells: 80) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]

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