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Is anyone else finding weird similarities between Chaturanga (Davidson's variantion) and Makruk?

Well, the consensus for Makruk seems to be Elephant. This causes a dilemma; Elephant might be best for Makruk, but in WinBoard I also have to take into account how well it fits with other variants. One of the purposes of WinBoard is to provide a unified platform for variants, where the user can easily switch from one to the other, because the pieces symbols always mean what he is used to, with perhaps a minor modification (such as the Chess Knight vs Xiangqi Horse). This is why I dislike the Elephant; it is really a completely different piece from the Xiangqi or Shatranj Elephant. And I would also dislike the Silver General to be different in Shogi and Makruk.

So I will keep this under consideration; the alpha version of WinBoard now on my website still uses the German Helmet. Perhaps I should switch to that in Shogi too. Or perhaps I should indeed make an entirely new symbol for Silver.

Unfortunately, WinBoard has no separate symbol for the Shogi Silver General, and uses the same symbol for it in Shogi as the Ferz (which is also used in Shatranj and Courier for Queen, and in Xiangqi for Advisor). After all, it is an augmented Ferz, like the Gold General is an augmented Wazir.

But this poses a problem in Makruk, where the Ferz and Silver both participate. I'd rather not make new bitmaps; WinBoard has so many already, and they would have to be made for each size separately, etc. So I wanted to represent the Med by the standard symbol in WinBoard for Ferz, and find an alternative for the Silver.

My first thought was to use the Elephant, (the WinBoard symbol used in Xiangqi and also for the Shatranj and Courier Alfil), although it moves nothing like the Afil. The only reason is that Shatranj uses Alfils in those locations of the array. So I wonder if this is the optimal choice. Alternatives would be to use the Lance symbol. But this is currently used in WinBoard as a wild-card piece, that can move in any way you want, and I would like to keep it that way. And I had rather only have pieces that WinBoard knows the moves of in not-so-well-known variants, so that people can use the -showTargetSquares option to be reminded of how the piece moves. (Which does not work for the wild-cards).

Yet another possibility is to use the WinBoard Commoner symbol, a 'german helmet' with a spike on top. Perhaps this would be best? The standard move of the Commoner is like a King, and the Thai Bishop is a subset of this. And the over-all shape of the helmet with a spike on top is not unlike the shape of the Thai pieces for Bishop, Ferz and King.

What do you think?

As I know now there is not standard Makruk notation in enlish
This web has Makruk to play online that can save pgn

http://www.playok.com/th/makruk/

it use chess notation with some adpation, all pieces use like chess, but only promotion pawn to Q they use e6=P and after that they use P and for this pieces which has same function as original Makruk queen.

this web is Thai web to play online that can save pgn also, but all notation is on Thai charactor.

http://www.thaibg.com/TSOnline/index.php

Thai notation is like chess notation in full form, by example if we move N from b1 to d2 needs to write N, b1-d2 but all write in Thai charactor

I would like to suggestion Makruk notation in English should write as chess in short form like http://www.playok.com/th/makruk/ doing, but should change something following

1. B to S as it moves like Silver in Shogi
2. Q to M as it was called Med in Thai and M is not in a-h file notation so it will easy to read
3. pawn after promotion should using as same as original queen notaion which may be like this 'e6=M'

What would be the most logical choice of letters for representing the pieces of Makruk in the western alphabet, e.g. for writing down a game in PGN? How do the Thai do this? Do they use the letters for the Chess counterparts?

Does there exist something like Makruk diagrams, and if so, what pictograms are used. I have seen stuff written about the 'Thai Elephant', and how its move pattern is supposed to represent an Elephant, with 4 legs and a trunk. But I understand that the Thai word for it does not mean 'Elephant' at all.

How does Thai software for playing this game represent the pieces on the screen?

I hope that someone from Thailand can help me with these questions, as I am currently adding Makruk as a standard variant in WinBoard, and want to know how best to do that.

Very good. Now the brain doesn't have to make Bishop to Khon conversions. Many thanks.

I am looking to play a game of Makruk.

Here is a new preset I just created:
/play/pbm/play.php?game%3DMakruk+%28Thai+chess%29%26settings%3DAlfaerie

Anyone interested?

I found this link on Thai Chess:
http://www.thailandlife.com/thaichess/

which explains the rules of the game, including the rule about how many moves does a player have to checkmate a lonely King before a forced draw.

Hi, This is a Makruk software.

Hope you like it.

http://www.geocities.com/peacedeveloper/downloadChess.htm

In my Books about Thai Chess is always White starting at first. That means that white/red moves first. The strongest players of Thai chess are all members in the Bangkok Chessclub which is a strong Western Chess Club. Irt is very likely that there are stronger Players as Mr. Tor from Samut Prakarn who is very likely the Number 5 in Thailand. The Club in Samut Prakarn is near the Shuttle Buses to the Crocodile Farm and they are playing there always in the Afternoon.

Cambodian Chess is identical to Thai Chess with one exception. The king can jump one time like the castling at the begin from his original field like a knight to th side. Everything else is identical .... as i know.

Nice greetings from Bangkok

Because the arrangement of the pieces for both sides are 'mirrored',
that
is King on left, there should be no difference who moves first...  Some
old
literatures put Black at the bottom (ie. move first) but the 'official'
rules (probably written quite recently and followed the Int'l version)
now is that White moves first.

And, by the way, I would like to add that there is a new ThaiChess
software with nice graphics etc. at www.thaichess.com...  Check it out! 
at about US$5, it's a great value and fun.  (The program incorporated
ALL
drawing rules, the first one that I know of)

Hi! One more question for Poompat or any native (or thoroughly accustomed)
player of makruk:
It there a first move rule? That is, does black or white (or red) move
first...or is there some other conventional way of deciding who has the
first move?
I've printed up a booklet of the rules of makruk...and someone asked me
this question...but I can't seem to find any answer, on this site, or on
any of the makruk sites, or in any of my books.
Is there a first move rule?

Does anyone know from which year the first written source mentions makruk?
Does anyone know which is the oldest makruk piece or set found?
Is there any other source to how old the game is?

I had not thought of the idea of a variant with a met having the move of
the gold from shogi, as Mr. Gilman suggests, but my son compiled a ZRF
for
makruk-gi.  The game was surprisingly more playable than chessgi.

As to wooden sets, I wonder if Poompat knows a way to contact the Thai
Department of Corrections who list a board and pieces on their website:
http://www.thaicorrect.moi.go.th/sst93.html.  I have tried writing to the
site coordinator (although in English) and had no success.

I have seen that there are books and websites in Thai on various aspects
of play -- I found some endgame exercises with diagrammatic solutions
very
easy to read and quite instructive.

I wish that there were more instructive literature available to English
readers.  Some of those endgames with a couple of mets look very complex.

Nice to be able to share information !

'the pawn, called 'bia,' is traditionally a cowrie (or cowry) shell.
Are cowrie shells still used today in Thailand' is correct... Bia was
the
small changes like coins at that time, as compared to 'gold nuggets'
that were like currency notes...  But I do not know what they used for
other big pieces then...

Nowadays, everybody use plastic sets... and may be soda bottles' caps in
place of lost pawns... cowrie shells, as a form of money before coins,
are
now rare collectible items of much values... even the boards are now
plastic or 'imitation wood made from pressed-papers' although some
people still have hand-carved wood sets and boards (also very rare and
collectible-items because nobody makes them anymore > no buyers)

One last interesting bits:  'Last century, special first moves for king
and queen were allowed (the king could make a knight move his first move,
and the queen could move two squares diagonally on her first move.) This
practice seems to be no longer in use currently'
The reason is that in the opening,  the kings were almost always played
to
b2 and g7 (like Castling) The Left Bishop usually to c2 and f7.  Same
with
the Queen to e3 and d6 Or rarely c3 and f6..... So they just sfe time.
Nowadays, the serious games forbid these, but on the street and
countryside, they still make these 'Formula moves'  (that's what the 2
rules are called).

Thai Chess gained much popularity in the 1990s, with 5-7 televised
national events /year,  but after lots of published analysis, the
knowledge of Thai Chess techniques + strategies seem to have reached the
peak.  Sadly, almost all serious games between similar-level pros are
draws.  Now, they have to invent tie-break games call 'MAKPONG'
(Defensive Chess) wherein the player who checks the opponent's king such
that  he has to MOVE the king wins.  BAD IDEA!!!

On the brighter side, Thai Chess is still the second- most popular board
game in Thailand (after Thai Checkers) and gaining popularity among
general players, esp. in countryside, who just play to enjoy.  One reason
is, interetingly, cheaper plastic sets and more modern-trade distribution
channels (like Tesco Lotus, and c-stores) ...

Hope it was useful info.
[email protected], [email protected]

Just to reaffirm that I am Thai and am 100% certain of the rules....

With regard to the name 'MAK'  = board game 'ROOK' = attack

The spellin is coincidental...

Also, 'KHUN'  means the chief, head, principal etc.  It is used to
refer
to the king but to use  the actual word 'king'  as a playing piece was
against Thai culture.

As for 'KHON' (pronounced like Cone)  it is definitely NOT the form of
drama (different pronuciation & spelling in Thai) but nobody know the
origin.  Some authorities suggested it derived from 'KON' 
(short-vowel)
meaning human.

The drawing rule (counts) is very complex.  Apparently this arise from
gambling or playing practices to ensure some chances for the losing side.

Here is the rules: (the Official Rules of the Thailand Chess Federation)
There are 2 modes of counting: (depending on the state of the losing
side)
(1). If the losing side has one or more pieces left (besides the King):-
    Prerequisites: 1A No unpromoted pawns (both sides') on board.
                             1B The losing side has a clear disadvantage,
basically only in endgame positions, ie. few pieces left.  *This is where
the rule is still somewhat unclear > up to referee to judge* but
generally
it is common sense like R vs N, 2R vs R+N, etc.
    Procedure: The losing player start counting his own move from 1 to 64
if he can makes the 65th move, it's draw.
    Note: If in the course of counting, the losing side lose all other
pieces, then he can start counting according to rule (2).  You will
notice
that the count here is to 64, this rule section is called 'The Board's
Honour Rule', refering to the fact that the losing side has made 64
moves
= number of squares on board.
(2).  If the losing side has a lone King:- ('The Pieces' Honour Rule')
     Prerequisites: 2A No unpromoted pawns (both sides') on board.
                              2B The losing side has only a king
    Procedure: The losing player start counting his own move start from
1+
the total number of all pieces left on the board (incl. kings) to the
specified number (below) if he can makes 1 more move after the specified
number without checkmate, it's draw. (in other words, The wining side
has
one more move to checkmate)
    The Pieces' Honours: in this exact order (regardless of any other
pieces left):
                 2 Rooks = 8
                 1 Rook   = 16
                 2 Bishop = 22
                 2 knights = 32
                 1 Bishop = 44
                 Others = 64
     Examples: K+2R+N vs K count = 8 start from 6
                        K +1R+2N+2B vs K count = 16 start from 8
                        K+ 2B+2N+5Q vs K count = 22 start from 12
                        K+ 2N+1B+1Q vs K count = 32 start from 7
                        K+ 1B+1N+3Q vs K count = 44 start from 8
                        K+ 1N+ 2Q vs K count = 64 start from 6
                        K+ 3Q vs K count = 64 start from 6
                        K + 2R +1N+1B+2Q vs K count = 8 start from 9
(auto
draw!)
    Note: If in the course of counting, the wining side lose some pieces,
the count continues, no change!.  You will notice that the Bishop is more
powerful in checkmating than Knight. 'The Pieces' Honours' refers to
the number of pieces left and the power of them.