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Fischer Random Chess. Play from a random setup. (8x8, Cells: 64) (Recognized!)[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Brad Hoehne wrote on Wed, Jun 20, 2001 12:00 AM UTC:
Hi,

I have worked out a slightly different method of setting up Fischer random
chess positions with a single six-sided die.   It's fairly easy to
memorizem because it follows logically from the positional rules of the
game.   As far as I can tell it will create all possible positions. Here it
is:

All die rolls are counted from the left side of the board from white's
point of view and apply to remaining empty and 'legal' squares only.

Because the king must be between both rooks, it can only occupy the central
six squares on each side.  Roll a die and place the king on one of the six
'central' squares.

Now place the rooks.   Roll a die for the left rook.  If the number exceeds
the number of squares on the left side of the king, roll again.    Repeat
for the right rook.  If there is only one square to the right or left of
the king, skip the rolls and simply place the rook.

Now place the Bishops.   Place the first bishop based on a die roll.   If
the roll value exceeds the number of remaining squares, roll again.   Place
the second bishop in a similar manner counting only the available squares
of the opposite color of the already placed bishop.

Place the queen with a die roll.  If the die number is 4-6 then subtract 3
from its value (to minimize the number of rolls necessary.)

Place the two knights on the last two squares.

I have yet to study this method in detail to determine if it favors certain
positions.


A modification of the die roll procedure to minimize re-rolls is as
follows:   If there are 2-3 'legal' squares for the rooks or the second
bishop take the remainder of the die in the 'modula' of the number of
remaining squares.  For example, if there are two legal squares for the
left rook, and one rolls a 5, one counts this as a '1', as 1 is the
remainder when one divides 5 by 2.  If the roll had been a '4' one would
count this as a '2'.   In the case of 3 empty squares, one a '5' would
count as a '2'.  A '6' would count as a '3' and a '4' would count  as a '1'
(as in the queen roll, which will always have 3).   

This method will not work without bias when there are 4-6 legal squares
remaining, and re-rolls must be employed.  However, statistically speaking,
fewer rolls will be necessary in such a case anyway.   

It is possible, though highly improbable, that one might require a very
large number of rolls to finally 'nail down' a position for the rooks and
bishops.  But once they are placed, only 1 roll remains.

What do you think?

Brad Hoehne- Columbus, Ohio.

Rookmaster wrote on Sat, Apr 20, 2002 11:01 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
Very good!

ken wrote on Sun, Apr 28, 2002 07:05 AM UTC:Poor ★
actually.. if you are a real fan of bobby fischer, you would have heard how
the real set up goes..

all pawns are in the exact same spots

king is placed in same position..
all other pieces in back row are shuffled but there must be at least 1
piece of 1 kind on each side and on the opposite side like a mirror

same goes for black.. mirror of whites side

Anonymous wrote on Wed, Sep 11, 2002 09:35 PM UTC:
This is a nice article, but it's frustratingly vague about how to castle (making it hard to actually play given the information here). I've examined the rules available on the web, including translations, and based on them written my own summary of Fischer Random Chess that I think is clearer. Please feel free to see my summary at <a href='http://www.dwheeler.com/essays/Fischer_Random_Chess.html'> http://www.dwheeler.com/essays/Fischer_Random_Chess.html</a>

Chuck wrote on Sat, Sep 14, 2002 09:47 AM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
Brad, I think your method favors positions with the king near the edge of the board, relative to the standard method. <p> This is because, since the king has to be between the two rooks, it's more likely to be closer to the center than to the edges. If the king is on the b1, there are only 6 combinations of squares the rooks can be on, while if it's on c1, there are 10 possible sets of squares for the rooks, and on d1, there are 12. (The fact that bishops must end up on opposite colors muddles things a bit too--it means that the king and two rooks are less likely to all three end up on the same color than they would be without the provision that bishops must be on opposite colors--but I can't think of a good way to explain this in detail without making this post much much longer than it already is.) <p> To look at it from a brute-force perspective, if you simply count up the king positions out of <a href='http://www.chessvariants.com/diffsetup.dir/fischer-random-fen.html'>all 960 possible setups</a>, you will find there are:<p> 108 setups with kings on b1 & b8<br> 168 setups with kings on c1 & c8<br> 204 setups with kings on d1 & d8<br> 204 setups with kings on e1 & e8<br> 168 setups with kings on f1 & f8<br> 108 setups with kings on g1 & g8<p> The standard method gives an equal probability to each of the 960 setups .

Marountas John wrote on Wed, Sep 25, 2002 06:05 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
Hello guys ! <p> I found this article extremely helpfull. <p> I have implemented all rules and created a playing program. It is web-based and free of charges. <p> Come and take a look at DC PlayZone : <a href='http://www.digichess.gr'>http://www.digichess.gr</a> <p> Regards, <b>Marountas John<br> <a href='http://www.digichess.gr'>www.digichess.gr</a> </b>

Scharnagl wrote on Sat, Oct 5, 2002 07:12 AM UTC:Good ★★★★
The rule of castling is not correct (last line of text). Please compare to <a href='http://www.smirf.de/Mirror/Compu/FullChess2_e.html'>Castling</a>.

Anonymous wrote on Fri, Oct 18, 2002 06:35 AM UTC:Good ★★★★
Fischerandom association:
http://www.Fischerandom.narod.ru
Welcome!

Dave Coffin wrote on Fri, Nov 1, 2002 02:32 AM UTC:Good ★★★★
I found a simpler procedure to set up Fischer Random Chess.
It doesn't require computers, dice, or lookup tables:

(1)  Put the eight white pieces in a bag.  Draw them one by one
and place them on squares a1, b1, ... h1.

(2)  If the bishops are on the same color, look at the following
pairs:  a1-b1, c1-d1, and e1-f1.  Swap the leftmost pair that
contains a bishop.

(3)  If the king is not between his rooks, swap the king with
the closer rook.

     All 960 legal positions are equally likely to result from
this method.

Moussambani wrote on Fri, Nov 1, 2002 11:16 AM UTC:
Can you prove it? I don't see that all the positions are equally likely? What if your bishops are at g1 and h1?

Dave Coffin wrote on Wed, Nov 6, 2002 09:43 PM UTC:
Oops, my bad.  There are 28 ways for the bishops to fall into the home row:
 16 ways are Fischer-legal and 12 aren't.  So there is no possible
one-to-one mapping of illegal positions to legal ones.  To be totally
unbiased, my Step #2 would have to say, 'If the bishops occupy the same
color, start over.'

My Step #3 is OK, though.  For every legal arrangement of king and rooks,
there are exactly two illegal ones.

Chris wrote on Fri, Nov 22, 2002 11:38 PM UTC:
I have long thought that the restriction of having bishops on opposite color squares is unnecessary. Why not let that be a strategic decision for each player? Maybe White will attempt to control squares of one color by placing both bishops on that color. Maybe Black will be content to balance the control of the bishops? Similarly, why restrict the King to be between the rooks? Maybe let each player 'castle in advance' by tucking the K away in a corner.

Reinhard Scharnagl wrote on Sat, Nov 23, 2002 05:41 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
You will find a nice freeware tool of a FEN-editor for Fischer Random Chess including a position generator at the following Link: <a href='http://www.rescon.de/Compu/FullChess7_e.html'>FullChess FEN-Editor</a>. Some ideas on chess algorithms and Fischer Random Chess could be found at this site too (English and German).

M. wrote on Mon, Dec 2, 2002 05:11 AM UTC:Good ★★★★
I played a game like this, and I liked it. Oh, and I set it up using David Coffin's method. Moussambani, g1 and h1 are different colors. what's the problem?

Landon W. Rabern wrote on Thu, Mar 27, 2003 06:12 PM UTC:
By the rules you have here, white can castle a-side.  Can he legally?

8/8/8/8/8/8/8/4NRKR w - - 0 1

white can castle h-side in this next position, yes?

8/8/8/8/8/8/8/5KR1 w - - 0 1

If the answer to the first question was yes, how about this position?

8/8/8/8/8/8/8/4nRKR w - - 0 1

does a piece occupying a square constitute that piece checking the
square?

Thanks,

Landon

roy keene wrote on Sat, Mar 29, 2003 02:21 PM UTC:Good ★★★★
a
very nice item. I just want to make a comment. I think Fischers chess is
realy good, but would have one thing different: as there is no kingside or
queenside as such (the k and q being setup randomly ) it would be better
if you cuold castle the same on both sides.....ie the king ends up on g1
or on b1. In standard chess castling q side has the disadvantage that king
is nearer the centre and has tl be moved to protect the a pawn. 
Leettting him castle deep int the corner would encoutrage opposite side
castling which leads to lively game sswithbsimultaneous attacks on bith
wings in my experience.
A very nice article thank you very much

Reinhard Scharnagl wrote on Sun, Mar 30, 2003 08:04 PM UTC:Good ★★★★
<p>Sorry, the FRC castling rules has to be commented again, because they are not absolutely correct described here. For those who want to redefine them: remember that classical chess has to be compatibly included!<br> I have tried to rewrite the FRC castling rules in a shorter but equivalent form at my homesite: <a href='http://www.rescon.de/Compu/fullchess3_e.html'>FRC Castling Rules</a> and something more around that theme (in english / german).</p>

David A. Wheeler wrote on Tue, Jul 8, 2003 05:07 PM UTC:Good ★★★★
Beware: The castling rules for FullChess are _NOT_ the same as
the rules for Fischer Random Chess.  This is clear from the
Spanish ruleset.  I'm sure both games are enjoyable - it's just
important to note that they are different.  If you happen to get the
orthodox initial position, it doesn't matter, but in other positions
the difference could make a difference.

David A. Wheeler wrote on Fri, Jul 25, 2003 05:00 AM UTC:Good ★★★★
A clarification: in Fischer Random Chess, the kings and castling rook are <i>not</i> allowed to jump over any pieces except each other. I've talked with Eric van Reem about this, and he did <i>not</i> intend to allow piece jumping, though I think you could easily read his rules and think that piece jumping is allowed (and the chessvariants page is baed on van Reem's rules). In other words, the rules of FullChess are a correct (and a better stated version) of the Fischer Random Chess rules. For more information, along with a nice simple explanation of the rules, <a href='http://www.dwheeler.com/essays/Fischer_Random_Chess.html'>see this page on Fischer Random Chess</a>. I suggest that this chessvariants page be updated to give clearer rules that forbid jumping during castling, since it appears that its promulgators don't intend to allow piece jumping during castling at all.

Larry Smith wrote on Fri, May 14, 2004 09:16 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★

🕸📝Fergus Duniho wrote on Fri, May 14, 2004 11:24 PM UTC:
No, Larry, you are mistaken. I have them right. a-side castling is Queen-side, and h-side is King side. The a-side is the side closer to file d, where the Queen begins in Chess, and the h-side is the side closer to file e, which is where the King begins in Chess. Also, item f of Fischer's own description of the rules matches what I have said.

Larry Smith wrote on Sat, May 15, 2004 01:54 AM UTC:
Sorry, I've been playing a lot of Shogi lately and I got switch around on the starting cells of the notation. ;-)

frcec wrote on Sat, May 29, 2004 12:20 PM UTC:
Fischerandom Chess email Club
http://frcec.tripod.com/

FRCEC rated games via Game Courier!

To play your rated FRCEC via Game Courier, advise your Chess Variant ID
when you setup your FRCEC match. You will be assigned an FRCEC Match
Number, and a the FRCEC moderator will setup the match at Game Courier for
you. You will receive an email from Chess Variants confirming the match
details, and you can now start your game with Game Courier. 
 
To join FRCEC, send an email to:
[email protected]

Reinhard Scharnagl wrote on Tue, Jun 8, 2004 10:09 PM UTC:
You now will find my 10 German/English Web pages on Fischer Random Chess at: <a href='http://homepages.compuserve.de/rescharn/Compu/fullchess1_e.html' title='The FRC Site'>The FRC Site</a>. Here you will find an overview of a new FRC book (to be published July 2004) in German language 'Fischer-Random-Schach (FRC/Chess960)' as a German language PDF document: <a href='http://homepages.compuserve.de/rescharn/Down/FRC_Materialien.pdf' title='FRC Book Overview'>FRC Book Overview</a>. The downloadable freeware FRC FullChess FEN Editor Version 1.4.0 (German/English) is described at: <a href='http://homepages.compuserve.de/rescharn/Compu/fullchess7_e.html' title='FRC FEN Editor'>FRC FEN Editor</a>.

Reinhard Scharnagl wrote on Sat, Jun 12, 2004 11:07 AM UTC:
My Web pages have moved to: <a href='http://www.chessbox.de/Compu/fullchess1_e.html' title='The FRC Site'>The FRC Site www.chessbox.de</a>.

Anonymous wrote on Fri, Jul 30, 2004 10:43 AM UTC:Good ★★★★
This variant is currently not supported at <a href='http://www.redhotpawn.com'>Red Hot Pawn Online Chess</a>, but do you think it should be added?

George Duke wrote on Fri, Aug 27, 2004 05:07 PM UTC:
Bobby Fischer's current take on FRC, radio interview last week,20.8.04 (from ChessBase):'I play Fischer Random. It is a much better game, more challenge. Chess is a dead game, it is played out. Fischer Random is a version of Chess that I developed or invented, where you shuffle the back row of pieces, not the pawns. Each side has an identical shuffle, so that everything is symmetrical, just like in the old chess. There are just a couple of rules: one Rook has to be to the left of the King, one has to be to the right of the King, one Bishop has to be on a light-coloured square, and one on a dark-coloured square. That's basically it. You can learn the rules in two minutes. It's a great game, and can become the standard for chess.'

Austin Lockwood wrote on Wed, Sep 8, 2004 02:07 PM UTC:
There is a new discussion forum for all forms of Fischer Random Chess (OTB, live Internet play and correspondence play) - please visit the <A href='http://www.chess960.info'>Chess960.info Discussion Forums</A>

Tony Quintanilla wrote on Thu, Nov 11, 2004 06:39 AM UTC:
The following e-mail was received by the editors: 

Great website! You write:
 

	'Fischer Random Chess has 960 legal arrays. This number is determined as
follows: 

	First, place the two Bishops. There are 16 different ways for one bishop
to be on a white square and the other Bishop to be on a black square. 

	That leaves six empty squares. Now, place the King somewhere between the
two Rooks. There are 20 different ways for a King and two Rooks to occupy
six squares with the King in between. 

	That leaves three squares for the two Knights and the Queen. There are
three possible ways to place these pieces. 

	Thus, there are 16 x 20 x 3 (960) legal arrays in Fischer Random
Chess.'

	 

	The most complex step is that 20 in the middle. It can be removed like
this:

		Fischer Random Chess has 960 legal arrays. This number is determined as
follows: 

		First, place the two Bishops. There are 16 (4 x 4) different ways for
one bishop to be on a white square and the other Bishop to be on a black
square. 

		That leaves six empty squares. Now, place the Queen. There are 6
different ways to do this. 

		That leaves five empty squares. Now, place the two Knights. There are 10
different ways to do this. 

		That leaves three empty squares. Lastly, place the two Rooks and the
King. There is only one legal way to do this. 

		Thus, there are 16 x 6 x 10 x 1 (960) legal arrays in Fischer Random
Chess. 

		Regards 

		Peter Ridges

Austin Lockwood wrote on Thu, Dec 16, 2004 01:41 PM UTC:
The First SchemingMind.com Correspondence Fischer Random Chess Dropout Tournament will commence on Monday 10th January 2005. <p>The dropout format is similar to a conventional Swiss tournament, except that players 'drop out' after each round. Each player plays one game with white and one game with black in each round (against different opponents) and 'Malus points' are awarded after each game (0 for a win, 1 for a draw and 3 for a defeat). Players with six or more MP (totalled over all rounds) are eliminated from subsequent rounds. First round pairings are drawn at random, and subsequent pairings attempt to match players on the same MP score. <p>This tournament will be held on the SchemingMind.com correspondence chess server, entry is free. Up to six rounds may be played and each round will last a maximum of four months (unfinished games will be adjudicated at that time). <p>A prize of a chess e-book will be awarded to a player at random qualifying from round one, and another to a player qualifying from round two, no other prizes will be awarded for the tournament. Prizes have been kindly donated by chesscentral.com <p>To enter the tournament, you must first register as a player on SchemingMind.com (registration is also free). There is a link on each page to the tournament registration page. <p>Fischer Random Chess is a great game for players who would like to try playing chess without reference to opening books or databases! - for this tournament, the starting position for *each game* will be decided at random and not be announced until the games have started. <p>Good luck! <p>Austin Lockwood Webmaster, http://www.schemingmind.com/

Thomas Alsop wrote on Wed, Jan 5, 2005 06:48 PM UTC:Good ★★★★
I have expanded Fischer's mathematics system to cater for Capablanca's
chess variations.

Capablanca84000 is a variant of Fischer Random Chess (Chess960), based
on the Capablanca (10x8) variation.
The light (for white. dark squared for black) squared bishop may start
on one of 5 files (b,d,f,h,j). the dark (light for black) squared
bishop may similarly begin on one of 5 files (a,c,e,g,i).
The archbishop may then be placed on any of the remaining 8 files.
The chancellor may then be placed on any of the remaining 7 files.
The queen may then be placed on any of the remaining 6 files.
The two knights may be placed within the remaining 5 files in 10 ways:
1+2, 1+3, 1+4, 1+5, 2+3, 2+4, 2+5, 3+4, 3+5, 4+5.
The remaining 3 files are filled in the order of rook-king-rook to
allow for castling on both sides of the king.
Multiplying the quotients gives the number of combinations: 5 x 5 x 8
x 7 x 6 x 10 = 84,000

By taking the random number, 12345, we can calculate the combination
for white (black is mirrored from white through 4th/5th rank).
Placement of light squared bishop: 12345/5 = 2469 with no remainder.
the light squared bishop goes in it's first possible file, b.
Placement of the dark squared bishop: 2469/5 = 493 with remainder of
4. The dark squared bishop goes in it's last possible file, j.
Placement of the archbishop: 493/8 = 61 with remainder 5. The
archbishop goes into its 6th (note, lowest remainder is 0, not 1)
possible file. b and j are already taken, so the archbishop goes into
file g.
Position of the chancellor: 61/7 = 8 with remainder 5. The chancellor
goes into the 6th available file. b, g and j are taken, so the
chancellor goes into file h.
Placement of the queen: 8/6 = 1 with remainder 2. The queen goes into
the 3rd possible file. b, g, h and j are taken so the queen goes into
file d.
Placement of the two knights: The last integer result, 1, indicates
that the two knights occupy the 2nd possible combination of files,
1+3. b, d, g, h and j are taken, so the knights occupy files a and e.
The remaining three files (c, f and i) are filled by the two rooks and
the king, with the king inbetween the two rooks. Thus, the rooks go
into files c and i. The king goes into file f.
The set up for combination 12345 is:
knight-bishop-rook-queen-knight-king-archbishop-chancellor-rook-bishop.

One of the current most popular chess variants on the market today is
Gothic Chess, 'designed' by Edward Trice. The pieces row in Gothic chess
is as follows (from left(a-file) to right(j-file)):
rook-knight-bishop-queen-chancellor-king-archbishop-bishop-knight-rook on
a 10x8 board.
How to calculate the equivalent Capablanca84000 combination: The light
squared bishop is in the 4th possible file. We use the quotient 3.
The dark squared bishop is in the second possible file. For this we
use the quotient 1.
The archbishop is in the 6th possible file, quotient = 5.
The chancellor is in the 4th available file, quotient = 3.
The queen is in the 3rd available file, quotient = 2.
The knights are in the 6th possible orientation, quotient = 5.
Using these numbers we calculate backwards. The last quotient is 5.
The number 5 is achieved after dividing 30 by 6. 30 + 2 is the
previous number. 32 is achieved After dividing 224 by 7. 224 + 3
should be the previous number. 227 is achieved After dividing 1816 by
8. 1816 + 5 should be the previous number. 1821 is achieved After
dividing 9105 by 5. 9105 +1 should be the previous number. 9106 is
achieved by dividing 45530 by 5. The final calculation is to add the
first quotient, 3, to 45530 to give 45533.

The first Capablanca84000 combination is 00000. The last combination is
83999.

Capablanca84000 and its calculating system are intended to be made the
property of the public domain and may be used or improved by any entity,
or hosted for free on any internet website. The reason for designing
Capablanca84000 was to give something to the world of chess. It took under
an hour to design and I would not feel comfortable for receiving anything
more than acknowledgemnt of contribution, since no novel idea was
employed. I wish that no third party may charge or be charged for using
Capablanca84000. I wish for it to be public domain. I wish that the design
ownership belong to José Raúl Capablanca and Robert James Fischer.
I have 'designed' my own personal combination which I believe is unique
and the best set-up. Currently, I choose to keep this combination secret,
until I am the recognised 'designer' of it.

Reinhard Scharnagl wrote on Thu, Jan 6, 2005 07:50 PM UTC:
There is aready my proposal for Capablanca Random Chess. I repeat it here:

CAPABLANCA RANDOM CHESS (2004-Nov-26) Proposal 

This definition of CRC should cover the following goals:

a) creating an interesting drosophila for chess programmers 
b) using Capablancas 10x8 Chess board geometry 
c) using Capablancas piece set (incl. archbishop and chancellor) 
d) applying rules aligned to Fischer Random Chess 
e) avoiding conflicts to any claimed patents 

The CRC rules are: 

a) creating a starting position (one of 48.000): 
 1) the bishops have to be placed upon different colored
  squares; same rule applies to the implicite bishop pieces:
  queen and archbishop (aligned to FRC)
 2) the king always has to be placed somewhere between the 
  rooks to enable castlings (aligned to FRC)
 3) use only such positions without unprotected pawns (Chess)

b) describing a method of generating starting positions on 
   free squares by using a dice or random number generator: 
 1) select queen or the archbishop to be placed first (2x)
 2) place the selected 1st piece upon a bright square (5x)
 3) place the selected 2nd piece upon a dark square (5x)
 4) one bishop has to be placed upon a bright square (4x) 
 5) one bishop has to be placed upon a dark square (4x) 
 6) one chancellor has to be placed upon a free square (6x) 
 7) one knight has to be placed upon a free square (5x) 
 8) one knight has to be placed upon a free square (4x)/2 
 9) set the king upon the center of three free squares left
11) set the rooks upon the both last free squares left 
12) this establishes White's first row, the Black side 
    has to be built up symmetrically to this 
13) place ten pawns similar to traditional chess in a row 
14) skip this position if it has unprotected pawns or not
    at least three positions in line 1 differently filled
    compared to Gothic Chess (patented), this finally gives
    about 21.259 distinct starting arrays.
   
c) nature of (asymmetric Fischer-) castlings:
 1) castlings are (like in traditional chess) only valid
  if neither the affected king or rook has been moved, or
  there would be a need to jump over any third piece, or
  the king would be in chess somewhere from his starting
  position to his target field (both included). Therefore
  all squares between king and its target square (included) 
  have to be free from third pieces, same applies to the
  way the rook has to go to its target square.
 2) the alpha-castling (O-O-O, White's left side):
  like in FRC the king will be placed two rows distant
  from the border (here c-file) and the rook at the next 
  inner neighboured square.
 3) the omega-castling (O-O, White's right side):
  like in FRC the king will be placed one row distant
  from the border (here i-file) and the rook at the next 
  inner neighboured square.

d) performing castlings:
 within a GUI try to move the king upon the related rook
 or at least two squares into that direction; manually:
 1) move the king outside of the board
 2) move the rook to its end position (if need to)
 3) move the king to his end position

e) extended FEN encoding:
 1) the extended FRC-FEN could be used as a base
 2) 'a'/'A' are used to identify archbishops
 3) 'c'/'C' are used to identify chancellors
 4) '9' is used to mark nine empty squares
 5) '10' is used to encode ten empty squares
 6) if a castling enabled rook is not the most outer one
  at that side, the letter of his file has to be placed
  immediately following his castling marker symbol, where
  'q'/'Q' are used for the alpha-, 'k'/'K' for omega-side.
 
f) engine notation rules for castling moves:
 According to UCI convention the castling moves should be
 written by using both coordinates (source and target field)
 of the involved king. But there are castlings, where the 
 king does only one or none simple step. In that cases the 
 castling should be distinguishable by appending a 'k', like
 already practized in promotion moves to make them unique.
 Overmore an engine should accept O-O or O-O-O (no zeroes),
 but only use them, when the GUI would demand for such a
 less precise notation.

taa wrote on Fri, Jan 7, 2005 12:58 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
Capablanca Random Chess (CRC) and Capablanca84000 were hybridised from
previously existing ideas (by Robert James Fischer and Jose Raul
Capablanca) independantly by their respective authors. Capablanca84000 is
the property of the public domain. I request confirmation as to whether
CRC is also the property of the public domain. The author of
Capablanca84000 supports and acknowledges the work of the author of CRC.
CRC and Capablanca84000 are the fruit of the same idea by two independant
authors. CRC and Capablanca84000 are significantly different to allow the
employment of either mathematical system.
Capablanca84000 is a more direct hybrid of Capablanca Chess using the
Fischer Random Chess (FRC) system. CRC is a modified hybrid of Capablanca
Chess and the FRC system.

As for catering for the possible system result which gives a position
similar or identical to a previously existing 'patented' 'invention',
I would state that generating a random number does not breach any patent.
Further, applying this random number to mathematical system which is the
property of the public domain does not breach any patent. Coincidence does
not breach any patent.

Greg Strong wrote on Fri, Jan 7, 2005 06:52 PM UTC:
I like Reinhard's CRC a lot, and I like it better than Capablanca84000. My only complaint is the same as the previous poster's; I don't like the restriction that avoids patented setups. I also do not think that randomly generated numbers can violate patents.

Reinhard Scharnagl wrote on Sat, Jan 8, 2005 05:22 PM UTC:
I want to make clear, that I do not intent to patent the idea of CRC.
Everybody who like it, may use it freely. Nevertheless it is not public
domain concerning the idea, because I want to be asked when changes or
improvements should become necessary. In so far I claim my copyright on
that idea. 

As an example currently there is a discussion, how the new pieces should
be represented. Indeed it seems neither being simple nor to be skipped
finding appropriate icons DISTINCT to existing and RELATED to the GAITS of
the represented pieces. The solution Smirf (my program being able to play
FRC and CRC, see: [http://www.chessbox.de/_tmp/SmirfPrototyp.png]) provides
for that problem thus avoids the usage of horse heads or bishop hats. And
for newcomers additionally to those pictures it might be helpful also to
use new and better names, where some already have been introduced here: 

CROSSED SWORDS: A=ARCHANGEL (ger. E=Erzengel, protecting the paradise with
swords) instead of Archbishop or Janus 
ROOK on a HORSESHOE: C=CENTAUR (ger. Z=Zentaur, because of its double
nature, horse part below) instead of Chancellor

See for that at: [http://www.chessbox.de/Compu/schachveri1_e.html]

To Greg Strong: I still want to avoid unnecessary conflicts with Ed Trice.
Nevertheless I agree, that randomly produced starting arrays hardly could
be regarded as trial to break a patent, where chances are 1:21.000. May be
it would help to specify an ERC variant: EUROPEAN RANDOM CHESS without
that GC avoiding rule, because such patents seem not to be valid in Europe,
also reflecting the European history of that extended 10x8 variant.

taa wrote on Sun, Jan 9, 2005 06:23 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
Reinhard, may i suggest an improvement to CRC? it seems to me that you
wish
to limit the number of credible variations to 'as low a number as
possible', to increase the overall credibility of the system. in
Capablanca84000, i considered deleting 42,000 of the variations since
they
are mirror images of the other 42,000. however, the reason behind
Capablanca84000 was to expose a conman using the traditional Fischer
system and no new formulae of my own (except those required for
Capablanca's archbishop and chancellor). thus, i am happy with the
number
84,000. indeed, i could even introduce more than 84,000 if i wanted to by
not being strict about bishops or rooks.
by introducing my suggestion you can get CRC down to about 10,000
variations [edited]. especially since
Capablanca84000 belongs not to I, but to the public domain. [edited]
my suggestion comes in several forms:
A: king must be to the right of the queen. traditional, includes
'invented' position.
B: king must be to the left of the queen. untraditional, deletes need for
patent skirting.
C: king must be on the right side of the board. see A.
D: king must be on the left side of the board. see B.

Reinhard Scharnagl wrote on Sun, Jan 9, 2005 11:46 PM UTC:
What is your goal, taa? Supposing you are intelligent I prosume you could
imagine that I notice that you are anonymously spreading desinformation
and nonsense here. Because the castlings like in Chess960 are not
symmetric, there is no redundance of mirrored positions. And CRC of course
is not trying to get as few as possible starting arrays, but instead to
filter positions, which eventually could be used as polemic arguments
against CRC, and to secure a more harmonic impression of that approach.

taa wrote on Mon, Jan 10, 2005 12:14 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
you might be right, i based the castling assumption on something else.
something i assumed before i learnt about fischer castling.
take standard chess and its mirror as variations in chess960. castling
would be the only difference between the two, other than
left-hand/right-hand bias. that's a shame.
my goal, is to liberate capablanca chess from the slavery which that
person has put it under, with his incredible patent. (note, contrary to
popular opinion, incredible doesn't mean good, it means 'not credible')

Leo wrote on Thu, Jan 13, 2005 11:14 PM UTC:
ok, i didn't quite get the distinction, but here is my comment on
cappablanca chess in general: it gives rooks more power, and takes too
much power from the knights. the addition of the 16 extra squares reduces
the board mobility of the knights, a pivitol piece in Chess and Fischer
Random Chess. 

and i also find the two new peices to be just a tad extravagant. i think
if i want new peices, play 'chess with different armies', my new
favorite besides FRC. (my prefference now goes: FRC, CwDA, then chess,
then cappablanca chess.) 

anyway, FRC was invented because of how boring openings have gotten in
Chess, because there are millions of pages written about the openings
alone, and everyone is playing off of memory, not playing chess. 

CRC and Cappablanca 84000 are simply superfluous in this way, because
cappablanca chess itself doesn't yet (and perhaps never will) have the
problem of opening memorizations.  

anyway, this is what i think. mostly just taste, but a little informed
opinion as well.

Greg Strong wrote on Thu, Jan 13, 2005 11:17 PM UTC:
Does anyone happen to know what year this game was invented?  Amazingly
enough, there is no mention of FRC in Pritchard's encyclopedia.  I would
like to supply such basic information as year of invention for all games
supported by ChessV, so any information would be helpful!

Thanks,
Greg

Leo wrote on Thu, Jan 13, 2005 11:45 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
it was invented in 1996 by Robert Fischer in Argentina.  

http://www.chessbox.de/Compu/fullchess1b_e.html

David Paulowich wrote on Fri, Jan 14, 2005 02:41 AM UTC:
Greg: I intended to add a comment about Count Van Zuylen van Nijevelt's 200 year old variant to this page, but I had too many windows open and it ended up on Eric van Reem's introduction and history of FRC (link near the top of this page). You should check out van Reem's page anyway. <p>Leo: For me, nothing beats the challenge of playing a six hour game of chess against a 2100 level opponent. But winning the CWDA PBM Tournament here three years ago came close! Giving history lessons to the people on this web site is very low on my list of priorities. Anyway, I will give it one more try. The Carrera/Bird/Capa line of variants goes back four centuries. 'Carrera Random Chess - all your variants in one game!' goes back to my September 2004 comment on the Carrera's Chess Page. Nowadays I call this variant by the more accurate name of 'Pairwise Drop Chess' - latest version of the rules to be added soon, as a Carrera's Chess Page comment.

Robert Fischer wrote on Fri, Jan 14, 2005 04:19 AM UTC:
'Giving history lessons to the people on this web site is very low on my
list of priorities.'
_____________________

If your definitive history lessons must include condescending remarks
toward this entire group, then I am confident we can survive completely
without your input.

Reinhard Scharnagl wrote on Fri, Jan 14, 2005 12:59 PM UTC:
The CAPABLANCA-RANDOM-CHESS idea goes back to early 2004. One of the first
publishings of that idea has been made by me at July 1st, 2004 in 

http://www.bauer-schweitzer.de/forum/index.html

Greg Strong wrote on Fri, Jan 14, 2005 04:42 PM UTC:
David: Thanks. This information has been most helpful!

George Duke wrote on Fri, Jan 14, 2005 08:55 PM UTC:
David Paulowich mentions playing against '2100 level opponent', meaning FIDE Chess at expert level. How would typical FIDE player do at CVs? Ralph Betza says (under Chaturanga)his 'average of the two skills is far higher than anybody else' including Parton and Fischer. It would be expected a 2300 Master or even 2600 Grandmaster maintain the level in extensive play of Carrera's or Capablanca-Random, or Grand Chess, because of the familiar piece moves. On contrary, a Grandmaster forced to play a lot of Ultima, Maxima, Chess-Different-Armies may never rise above 'Class A 1999'[in CV rating] however calculated. As far as that goes, why conflate general chess skill and success at FIDE game?

Greg Strong wrote on Fri, Jan 14, 2005 09:29 PM UTC:
<p><blockquote>On contrary, a Grandmaster forced to play a lot of Ultima, Maxima, Chess-Different-Armies may never rise above Class A 1999, however calculated.</blockquote> Is this statement based on some research? I find it counter-intuitive that simply playing the games you mention would reduce or limit someone's skill at Orthodox Chess.</p>

George Duke wrote on Fri, Jan 14, 2005 10:16 PM UTC:
Of course I mean a 2400 Senior Master would stay that within FIDE chess. Ralph Betza's idea is for a combined rating. Suppose 9 CVs are equally rated with FIDE Chess making 10 games. Playing at 2000 for the 9 would come in at 2040 for fully-combined rating in this hypothetical case. Obviously it can help performance to know a variety of mind sports, like cross-training in athletics. Betza spoke of his being Master, so say he has been FIDE-rated 2200. He may very well have reached some 2700 at CVs, having played them 30 or more yrs. His combined rating, 2600 or whatever depending on the system and weightings, would be hard to beat. (Such CV ratings do not exist, but are further suggested by Paulowich's Comment here about PBM and Orthodox Chess.)

David Paulowich wrote on Sat, Jan 15, 2005 08:54 PM UTC:
Reinhard: The Cetina Random Chess page (June 3, 1998) on this site is the original source of my interest in shuffle chess variants, which eventually led me to a diceless chess variant. I wish you well with your Capablanca Random Chess project.

David Paulowich wrote on Sat, Jan 15, 2005 09:07 PM UTC:
George: Betza tends to call Chess With Different Armies 'just plain chess' and reserve the term 'chess variant' for something as different as Shogi. This can be confusing to us mere mortals. I have added a few comments concerning his rating(s) to the Chaturanga page.

Reinhard Scharnagl wrote on Mon, Jan 17, 2005 05:55 PM UTC:
to David: thank you for your good wishes. I am about to do the first tests of the second Smirf program beta release. It is able to play Chess, Chess960, Capablanca Random Chess, Janus Chess and a lot more 8x8 and 10x8 variants (but claiming FCR/CRC are SUPERSETS, not variants).

Roberto Lavieri wrote on Mon, May 30, 2005 10:39 PM UTC:
From Chessbase:
Breaking news: Fischer comeback?
27.05.2005 Bobby Fischer is considering returning to the arena of
competitive chess. Yesterday he met with his former adversary Boris
Spassky, who travelled to Iceland with the expressed purpose of 'drawing
Fischer back to the chessboard'. Fischer is agreeable to the notion, but
insists on a worthy opponent and Fischer Random rules.

Derek Nalls wrote on Tue, May 31, 2005 03:36 PM UTC:
Well, don't buy a non-refundable airline ticket to Iceland for this event
just yet.  Fischer is notoriously eccentric and difficult to negotiate
with.

The weird thing is that I suspect all of the publicity surrounding his
detention in Japan and fugitive status in US-America made this tentative
event hold stronger interest to the public and hence, more feasible as a
business venture.

Roberto Lavieri wrote on Tue, May 31, 2005 05:39 PM UTC:
Obviously, Fischer eccentricities, mental sickness and actual status can be used by others for monetary purposes. The problem is that this man is unpredictable enough, and investing some bills in this adventure is a real risk for the opportunists.

Greg Strong wrote on Wed, Jun 1, 2005 01:34 AM UTC:
Fischer is eccentric for sure, and I have no doubt that he knows how to
play his status to his advantage (monetary or otherwise.)  What gives me
hope is his requirement for 'fischer random' rules.  To me, this
suggests that his eccentricity is focused on the popularization of FRC and
not on direct income.  Given that this is his purpose (allegdly) the
question is whether other top-level players will agree.  His other
requirement was world-class competition, and I truely wonder how many
other grand-masters will be willing to play him at his own game (despite
the fact that 'his game' is designed to level the playing field by
removing opening book knowledge.)

Roberto Lavieri wrote on Thu, Aug 4, 2005 01:20 PM UTC:
FRC (Also called Chess 960, due the 960 possible starting positions) open Tournament in Mainz: The FiNet Open in Chess960 (11-12 August), in which the starting positions of the pieces will be known only a few minutes before the start of the game, is the only one of this sort worldwide on this level. The first 32 grandmasters of the starting list have an average ELO of over 2600!. It is also included the Chess960 (FRC) championship between Svidler and Almasi. To see...

Derek Nalls wrote on Fri, Oct 14, 2005 04:30 PM UTC:
Fischer vs. Topalov
Fischer Random Chess
http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=53662

According to this news report, both are willing to play one another.
Will negotiations over money and the details of the competition hold-up,
though?

M. Thompson wrote on Tue, Nov 8, 2005 05:21 PM UTC:
Yes, but was Fischer just being Fischer? The question has been asked
before. By the way, Karpov says he will play Fischer, even if it is FRC,
and there is an article out now showing Fischer meeting with Kasparov!!!!
Can this be true? http://www.GothicChess.com/news.html is the link.
Exciting stuff if it were so.

Gene Milener wrote on Mon, Feb 13, 2006 05:26 AM UTC:
It is significant news for chess960 (a.k.a. Fischer Random Chess) when a
major new chess book is published that is largely devoted to chess960.

I therefore would like to encourage the editors to add mention of this
new
chess960 book to this web page.

The book info is:

Play Stronger Chess by Examining Chess960:
Usable Strategies of Fischer Random Chess Discovered
   by
Gene Milener

ISBN  0-9774521-0-7
Page count 252

More information, including an extended excerpt, is available at
http://CastleLong.com/.

Available at Amazon.com and Amazon.co.uk, BarnesAndNoble.com, and
elsewhere.

This chess book is about both chess960 and chess1, because it compares
and
contrasts them.  This teaches us things about both rule sets that are
harder to see when studying either in isolation.

Thank you.

Juan Pablo wrote on Fri, Feb 17, 2006 11:09 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
Very good, I hope you can develop a chess game to download and promote de
fischerandom,

cheers from Argentina

Reinhard Scharnagl wrote on Mon, Feb 27, 2006 12:45 AM UTC:
Hi Gene, I mentioned your book near to mine at my SMIRF / ChessBox pages:
http://www.chessbox.de/Compu/schachbuch.html . Unfortunately my German
language book on Chess960 is sold only rarely about 10 pieces per quarter.
So I hope for you to have better success with yours ... ;-)

Your book is enlighting a lot of details also on 'fights' about right or
wrong extended FEN and move representation for engines playing Chess960.
Meanwhile the unnecessarily invented Fritz numbering scheme for Fischer
Random Chess luckily has been withdrawn by an update of that program.

Regards, Reinhard.

Derek Nalls wrote on Tue, Apr 4, 2006 06:10 AM UTC:
material values- all pieces
Fischer Random Chess
http://www.symmetryperfect.com/shots/values-chess.pdf

M. Futrega wrote on Sun, Aug 6, 2006 05:32 PM UTC:
Kurnik Online Games (http://www.kurnik.org/) has recently added Fischer Random Chess for playing online against live opponents in real time. There are online tournaments, game recording, archive of played games and other features available. (To play this game on Kurnik first choose 'chess' from the homepage, then switch to 'chess 960'.)

Rich Hutnik wrote on Mon, Apr 21, 2008 02:22 PM UTC:
My suggestion for a way to randomize the starting positions (also works with all shuffles) and also record this position in a way that is self-explanatory for the nature of the positions.  Please feel free to comment. 

Need 8 cards or tiles numbered 1-8.
These cards or tiles represent columns on a chessboard.  Numbers are used instead of letters, for notation purposes (see below).  Numbers correspond to different columns. 1=A, 2=B, 3=C, 4=D, 5=E, 6=F, 7=G, 8=H .   The space the pieces would go in are in the row they would normally set up in.  In normal chess, white goes into row 1 and black in row 8.  

Will place pieces in following order: Bishops, King, Rooks, Queen, Knights.  Pawns remain where they normally should be.  Whenever a card has been picked, then that card is separated from remaining cards to be used to determine placement of pieces.

To place Bishops: Separate cards into odd and even piles.  Shuffle and deal out one from each.  First place odd, then even numbers.  Record these two numbers. Example: Card 5 and card 6 came up.  Bishops are put in columns E (card 5) and F (card 6).  Record first two digits as 56

To place King: Gather together all cards that were not selected. Separate 1 and 8 cards from these cards. If the 1 card was already selected, then separate out the 2 card.  If the 8 card has already been selected, then separate out the 7 card.  These cards will be added back in to select placement of Rooks and Queen.  Shuffle together these remaining cards, and select 1.  Record this number.  Example: Card 3 came up.  Rook is put in column C (card 3).  Next digit is recorded as a 3.  The current record of pieces placed is 563.

To place Rooks: Look at position of King.  Gather together all remaining cards in a lower position than position of King in one pile (following with example here, cards 1 and 2) and all remaining cards in a higher position than King (following the ongoing examples, this would be cards 4, 7, 8).  Random select from first pile one card (or if there is only one card, then that is the position), and from second pile one card.  Record these numbers (lower then higher), and place rooks in these columns.  In this ongoing set of examples, let's say 2 and 8 were selected.  The numbers two and 8 would be recorded with the other numbers, and Rooks placed in the B (card 2) column and H (card 8) column.  The current record of pieces would be 56328

To place Queen: Take remaining cards together shuffle, and select one.  Queen would go in that column.  In this ongoing example, the remaining cards would be 1, 4, 7.  For this example, say the 1 card was picked.  Queen would be placed in the A column (card 1).  The current record would be 563281.  This is the final recorded position.

To place the Knights:  Place them in the two remaining empty positions.  In the ongoing example here, the remaining cards would be 4 and 7.  The Knights are placed in columns D (card 4) and column G (card 7).

To sum up, the position generated by this is: 564281 (b56 k3 r28 q1).  This is also the notation name for the position. 

Board set up would look like this:
qrknbbnr
pppppppp

[Empty spaces between pieces]

PPPPPPPP
QRKNBBNR

-------------------------------------
For a more random shuffle, in games without castling, the order of the pieces is done the same, but with less restrictions.  For color balance of Bishops, the same idea of sorting the cards by odd or even would apply.  Bishops would be then put on appropriate spaces.  Say 1 and 8 were picked.  The notation would be: 18 for Bishops.

Then the King would placed.  Say 2 was picked.  Notation would be 182

Then the Rooks would be placed.  Say 5, 7 were picked.  Notation would be so far 18257

Then the Queen would be placed.  Say position 3 was picked.  Notation would be 182573

Knights would be placed in empty spaces.

Pieces would be in following configuration:
BKQNRNRB

Final notation for this position is: 182573

George Duke wrote on Sat, Sep 20, 2008 10:22 PM UTC:Good ★★★★
Definitely the sense of CVPage readers in second year 1996 of website, when Bodlaender alone posted, was Track One, the Next Chess. We appreciate Joe Joyce's making serious comments briefly recapitulating unbeknownst that early ethos. In Argentina Fischer presented his alternative the same year of this article. Eric van Reem and the other authors may not mention anywhere that best information is that Alexandre in 1820's came up with the seminal idea for FRC. (Alexandre was one of the operators hidden inside The Turk automaton for Maelzel's circus.) By the time Betza became prolific in 2001, Track Two of whimsy and divertissement overtook Track One, and they both still have a role. Hey who would give up ''A Visit to Nemeroth'' for some extended Shatranj?

George Duke wrote on Fri, Jul 31, 2009 04:57 PM UTC:
The new world champion Hikaru Nakamura!  
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=5626
Randomized 8x8 came and went already many times. Researchers could write books on CVs randomizing pieces. Next to Carrera (RN) and (BN), shuffling is the most popular type of CV in all time for designers cooking something up.  Pritchard 'ECV' under Baseline Chess records year 1851 at Baden Baden score between van der Hoeven and von der Lasa starting BKRRBNNQ. Pritchard's source is 'Dizionario Enciclopedico degli Scacchi'. It's what we call FRC or Chess960 now for purely political reasons. The variables in the theme for these 200 years, since Alexandre's invention, chiefly include: (1) whether non-mirrors allowed (2) players select or not (3) how much free placement. Also included (4) what CV to start with, since it doesn't have to be really 8x8 RNBQKBNR, but instead such as Capablanca 8x10. 
http://www.chessvariants.org/large.dir/bbchess/bbchess.html Before is a plenteous one by Professor Shoenfelder on 10x10 more liberally predisposed than even Benko's Pre-Chess.
At that time of Capablanca Chess inception, around 1921 Erich Brunner began popularizing 8x8 Random as Free Chess. FC tourneys in 1920s happened at Switzerland and England, like Mainz 2006-2009 repeats now. The difference between Free and FRC is mostly respecting #(2) above; for Free the answer is Yes, and for Fischer the answer is No.

George Duke wrote on Fri, Jul 31, 2009 05:05 PM UTC:
There are many more attempts in 'ECV', including sources, at mixing up the first and last ranks. The Mutator is repeatedly exploited over two centuries. As Mutators, a good CV should include from 2 up to 10 well-thought-out alternate arrays, hoping or expecting each of them eventually to be played repeatedly. The idea of Free or Pre- or Fischer is more one-shot and forget-about-it. CV designers put forth an alternate initial array, so that when one exhausts (as RNBQKBNR exhausted probably by year 1920), just go to another 1 or 2 carefully selected. Only a few turn out to meet all criteria of aesthetics, challenge and evenness. [Related shufflers, RANDOMIZED CHESS and REAL CHESS in 'ECV' must be deferred for brevity.] In early 1970s the same general idea re-surfaces as Screen Chess, somewhat like Pre-Chess (1978) to follow. Differently Screen Chess involves further pre-deployment of forces beyond starting rank without shared knowledge; prolific Joseph Boyer expanded some modalities for SC -- suggesting it probably goes back to 1960s. To us this generic randomizing is more about Mutator niceties, not full-fledged CVs, even if adding some castling technicalities. Yet Fischer is entitled to Chess960 by CVPage standards (loose but not strict). So would be Karpov entitled to Chess 970, if so inclined, just by thinking up 10 more adequate orders. One or another Polger can have Chess 980, Anand Chess 990, and Kramnik 1000, and so on. To each his and her own. Or exclude 100 of them for your own Chess 860, 760, 660, 560; best add some ad hoc castling rule or even promotion characteristic for personal distinguishment.

George Duke wrote on Fri, Jul 31, 2009 06:41 PM UTC:
We should consider by his victory over Levon Aronian at Mainz 2009 Nakamura the world champion of Chess! Period. Because versatility at many arrays, whatever the undertaking is called or how brief the tournament, is superior measure than memorization within the silicon-owned RNBQKBNR fixed. For so long as FRC is the major creative competition -- and great sport as such -- by succeeding Aronian, Nakamura is now considered the premier one to beat. Congratulations are the order of the day.

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