[ Help | Earliest Comments | Latest Comments ][ List All Subjects of Discussion | Create New Subject of Discussion ][ List Latest Comments Only For Pages | Games | Rated Pages | Rated Games | Subjects of Discussion ]Comments/Ratings for a Single Item Later ⇩Reverse Order⇧ Earlier Mitregi. Larger Shogi variant with more powerful diagonal pieces. (10x9, Cells: 90) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating] JCRuhf wrote on Wed, Mar 8, 2006 11:29 PM UTC:Having colorbound pieces beside each other is a good idea. JCRuhf wrote on Fri, Mar 3, 2006 08:06 PM UTC:Charles, an 8x8 FO variant with pieces wrapping around would be a good idea, but it would get a little boring if the pieces never promoted, don't you agree? Charles Gilman wrote on Tue, Feb 14, 2006 08:12 AM UTC:Reinstating an odd number of files is an interesting idea. Simply reinstating a second Gold file would have the effect that each player would have their Bishops and Mitres bound to one colour and their Camels and Humps to the other, until such time as they could promote them or drop extra ones captured by the enemy. While not as problematic as in variants in which pieces do not change sides, it would nullify my reason for having two Bishops instead of Shogi's one. One possibility would be to have colourbound pieces starting beside each other. Thus a Mitregi-156 might have White's Bishops on d2/e2, Camels on i2/j2, Mitres on j1/k1, Humps on c1/d1, with Black rotationally symmetric with this. This would restore the Bishop-on-the-left character of Shogi itself. It would also make an interesting comparison with Wildebishogi on my Bishogi page (Shogi with Pawns and symmetric pieces, Bishogi). Another interesting idea that I have had is an 8x8 variant with just the forward-only pieces, winning by capturing the entire enemy army, no promotion, and pieces that reach the far rank wrapping back round to their back rank. This would have the armies effectively starting back-to-back with only their lack of backward move stopping them being en prise. I would welcome feedback on both these ideas before I submit them. JCRuhf wrote on Sun, Feb 12, 2006 05:14 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★Charles, this game is great! Yes, I know I haven't played it yet, but I love it! If I could give this game and each of its variants a grade, they would all get an A-. That means the only things missing from each group are 11-file and 13-file variants. The extra file would make room for an extra Gold-Point pair. Charles Gilman wrote on Sun, Aug 22, 2004 08:12 AM UTC:Having considered all the comments all these variants, regarding both the names and how the pieces fit in with board size, I am now planning to revise the names of the present versions and add two new larger ones. However the latter will use the Knight and Camel (both promotable to Gnu) alongside their forward-only versions, and my one concern is that David Howe's generally-commendable graphics might get confusing. Possibly more suited to a mixture of several types of symmetric and forward-only piece are the graphics used on the Tamerlane Chess page, with the small images representing forward-only versions of those represented by the corresponding large ones, assuming that large and small Bishop images are avaliable. If there are no images for Shogi generals, large Wazir and Ferz ones will do, particularly as this will use every image but King in large and small form. As for the names, I am currently considering using the number of cells: Mitregi-90 for the basic game, Mitregi-108 for Humpmitregi, Mitregi-120 for a variant adding Knights on 10 files by 12 ranks, and Mitregi-144 for one adding Knights and Camels on 12². It will be a while before I submit the update as I am still waiting to find out about the backlog in my recent submissions. So if anyone wishes to reply to my idea, or indeed knows anything about the backlog, please leave your comments. Charles Gilman wrote on Sun, Aug 15, 2004 08:14 AM UTC:I have now remedied my staking out of Bishogi by formally submitting it, although as there is now a two-month backlog of my submissions I cannot predict when it will be posted. I notice that the Cross is an authentic historic Shogi variant piece, with the Japanese name Sekisho (meaning Stone general), so Mitregi is perhaps not as radical a departure as comparisons just with standard Shogi suggests. Ivan A Derzhanski wrote on Sun, Jun 20, 2004 12:49 PM UTC:A belated response to Michael Howe's follow-up to me, 28 May: It was not my intention to either (re)name Charles Gilman's game for him or create a variant of my own using his game as a source. What I wanted to do is provide a partial ZRF implementation for other people to play with, build upon and eventually develop into whatever final form this game assumes (unfortunately, I have too little leisure now to take a more active part in this). I was using 'Xhogi' merely as a working name for this draft, but without insisting on this game (or a variant of it) being called so. Unfortunately, CV's comment editor has munched the URL I included, ((http://www.math.bas.bg/ml/iad/tyalie/xhogi.zip)). 🕸Fergus Duniho wrote on Fri, Jun 4, 2004 02:25 PM UTC:Since hump means mate, mit means with, and regi resembles words meaning king, humpmitregi could mean mate with king. Charles Gilman wrote on Wed, Jun 2, 2004 07:01 AM UTC:Michael Howe's dislike for my piece names is a matter of taste. What grates for me is giving the same name to very different pieces, and a forward-only piece IS very different from its symmetric version. The 2nd-rank pieces in Mitregi are placed at their FIDE intervals. An obvious further variant would have Knights in the Occidental sense, perhaps promotable to Gnu, in front of the Mitres, and I would wish to call those and those alone Knights rather than go down the Shanghai Palace road of multi-purpose piece names. As for not being self-evident, did anyone have trouble understanding Stripe in the comment originally mentioning it? On a positive note, I look forward to Shin Shogi. Larry Smith wrote on Sun, May 30, 2004 08:40 AM UTC:Charles, You might simply write the title of the game as 'MitreGi'. This would emphasize these sets of syllables and distinguish them one from the other. And so, 'HumpMitreGi' or 'Hump-MitreGi' might be considered for the variant. Charles Gilman wrote on Sun, May 30, 2004 06:12 AM UTC:The graphics and headings are good. Taking the comments since my last in alphabetical order: Grand Mitre Shogi: This is no less cumbersome than Humpmitregi. Grand Shogi would be snappier and sum up an array with 5 types of piece from the 3rd file inwards, but would it be too immodest? Hump leap length: Perhaps I should consider a 12x12 version, and suffix all forms with #cells - Mitregi 90, Mitregi 108, Mitregi 144. Humpregi: A better contraction would be Humitregi, as it would preserve better the link to the 10-file variant (if the original name for that is retained). Hybridity of name: This is due to my ignorance of Japanese and a wish to name the variant after the new piece for easy association. I welcome suggestions for Japanese words on which to tag -gi. Since my last comment I notice that Mitregi can also be read as a German-Latin hybrid meaning 'with the King', which fits the use of Shogi generals but highlights the unintended connotations of names starting with Hump. Mitre Shogi: This is still a hybrid, and less snappy than Mitregi, but might tie in with my forthcoming 3d Shogi variant being named Tunnelshogi. Mixed 3rd rank: This was to give something resembling Pawn structure while preserving Shogi's absence of divergent pieces. I agree that 5 of each would be untidy; 6 to 4 reflects the balance of 1st-rank pieces. Tunnelshogi will have a 3rd rank full of Princelings, all combining the moves of both pieces. Promo Chess comparison: Different inventors' ideas often converge. The Promo array has similarities to my Bachelor Kamil, but the inspiration is quite different. Mitregi promotion is intended as a development of Shogi's, retaining something of the simplicity lacking in Promo. There are no end of combinations of ideas. In time I will submit a FIDE-array variant named Bishogi (does Bi mean anything in Japanese?), differing from Chessgi in that simple pieces are promotable to Queen on reaching the enemy camp and captured promotees are reintroduced unpromoted. Reintroducing colourbounds: Perhaps the restrictions on these are too harsh and/or complex. I am considering relaxing them to twice the array number, so that someone capturing all enemy pieces of a type before promoting their own can deploy them all. Stripe: Reference to this piece reinforces my claim that my piece names are self-evident. Michael Howe overstates the problem with 3 oblique leapers, as there is no compounding, but I agree that adding a 3rd is unnecessary. It would actually detract from the symmetry as the 3:2 direction has its own dual, 5:1. Tunnelshogi will have no oblique pieces. Xhogi: Does Xho mean anything, in any language? I am not keen on that name for my own variant. It also suggests that this is to Shogi what Xhess is to FIDE Chess, rather than (as intented) what FIDE Chess or perhaps Courier is to Chaturanga. Larry Smith wrote on Sat, May 29, 2004 04:09 AM UTC:Mike, I did say that Mitregi was a nice game. The comparison to PromoChess is appropriate. It's more like comparing red apples to green apples. Both are attempts to 'westernize' Shogi. All Shogi do not have drops. Both have the application of westernized Pawns, two Bishops and two Rooks. PromoChess contains the Camel, Mitregi suggests the Camel in a variant. Regardless of the drops in Mitregi, the promotion possibilities are far more interesting in PromoChess. And there have been actual games played with PromoChess. I am un-aware of any game having actually been played with Mitregi. It appears to be simply an academic study at this point. But it is definitely nice. Maybe Glenn might consider the application of drops in a future variant? Hint, hint. Jeff Rients wrote on Sat, May 29, 2004 02:13 AM UTC:Good ★★★★The more I think about it, the more I am liking these variants, particularly the Mitre. It seems like a nifty little piece. The Hump is a little less obvious direction to go in, and I worry about its usefullness on an average-sized or small board. The mixed pawn line seems inelegant to me. As a matter of personal preference I would like the pawn line to be all one type of piece. Larry Smith wrote on Fri, May 28, 2004 08:23 PM UTC:Nice. But I think Glenn Overby's PromoChess is better. Ivan A Derzhanski wrote on Fri, May 28, 2004 03:56 PM UTC:Good ★★★★(1) I've started making a ZRF implementation of this game, but I've no time to finish it at the moment, so I urge anyone who feels like it to do so. I have only implemented the 10-file game (on which see below), and that without the restrictions on dropping Crosses and Mitres; I've called the game 'Xhogi', because I don't much care for 'Mitregi' (this being a rather styleless hybrid of an English word and a Sino-Japanese root), and because 'X' is an oblique-looking letter; and I haven't added the accompanying text (description, history, strategy). You can find my work at <http://www.math.bas.bg/ml/iad/tyalie/xhogi.zip> at the moment, but I shan't keep it there for long, so get it now. <p>(2) On the game itself. It looks quite playable to me (and ZoG seems to think the same). I don't mind the word `hump' itself (what else do you call the thing on the back of a camel?), but I have an objection to the 12-file variant: I'm very fond of symmetry myself, and I think that it's inconsistent for there to be a Camel if there's not going to be a Zebra. Therefore I'd rather adhere to 10 files, replacing one of the Points by a Cross (so there'll be five of each), and making the promoted Helm move as a non-royal King or as an Ortochess Knight. And if there'll be Humps, let there be Stripes as well, for better balance. Jeff Rients wrote on Fri, May 28, 2004 02:23 PM UTC:Actually, I think Mitregi works quite well if you don't try to pronounce it as a compound of Mitre and Gi. With a short i (as in the first syllable of mittens) and an unaccented second syllable you get a word that rolls off the tongue fairly well. 'mit-ruh-GEE' For the larger variant I would propose Humpregi. Not good, but maybe better than Humpmitregi. 🕸Fergus Duniho wrote on Fri, May 28, 2004 11:20 AM UTC:Although '12-file Mitregi' is better for losing 'Hump', '10-file Mitregi' is not any kind of improvement over Mitregi. Mitregi is just an ugly name. Mitre Shogi would work better. Charles Gilman wrote on Fri, May 28, 2004 07:09 AM UTC:With regard to Michael Howe's question on promotion: P/W/H => G, C/M/U => S (note the symmetry), R/B as standard Shogi, G/S/K are unpromotable (so that, as in standard Shogi, no piece is both promotable and a promotee). Where can pieces not be reintroduced? Where immediate promotion would be AUTOMATIC - far rank for all FO pieces, penultimate rank for Helms, entire enemy camp for Humps. Points cannot be reintroduced to give two (unpromoted) on the same file, but CAN on files which had none in the array. Colourbound pieces are restricted to the array total, broken down by type and binding. Why the name changes? To avoid carrying misleading connotations, and to allow easy extrapolation to other directions, or to avoid confusion when mixing with Occidental pieces. I cannot help but think that part of the adverse reaction to Shanghai Palace is the need to keep qualifying Pawn or Knight with the game that it is from. If the first two FO pieces are named after some attribute of the corresponding symmetric piece other attributes will have an obvious meaning. When my 4x4x8 Tunnelshogi comes out it will have a piece called the Horn, clearly the FO version of the Unicorn. Regarding the names, would '10-file Mitregi' and '12-file Mitregi' be better? Peter Aronson wrote on Thu, May 27, 2004 07:02 PM UTC:Thanks for the graphics, Jeff, they've been integrated into the page. (I also added some section headings -- let me know, Charles, if I got those wrong.) Jeff Rients wrote on Thu, May 27, 2004 04:24 PM UTC:I whipped up a couple of graphics showing the arrays for these two variants. I have submitted them. In the meantime if you would like to see them <a href='http://jrients.tripod.com/gameblog/index.blog?entry_id=324045'>click here</a> to go to my blog, where I have posted them. I used David Howe's excellent alfaerie graphics. For the Cross I used a Berolina Pawn. For the Mitre I used the Minister. I thought the double head on the Berolina and the doubly pointed hat of the Minister helped suggest the movement of the pieces. For that controversial piece the Hump I used a Camelrider graphic. Jeff Rients wrote on Thu, May 27, 2004 02:30 PM UTC:Unless someone else has already started, this weekend I am going to try to develop a graphic depicting the arrays for both variants. Charles Gilman wrote on Thu, May 27, 2004 07:38 AM UTC:Perhaps I didn't present the information well enough to make adding a diagram straightforward. Using U for Hump as initials for the rest, the games look something like this, which I hope helps editor and reader alike. Mitregi Humpmitregi3 PPCCPPCCPP PPCCCPPCCCPP 2 R B B R R B B R 1 WHMSGKSMHW WHMUSGHSUMHW I can see the case for a snappier name for Humpmitregi, and perhaps for Mitregi iself. Any suggestions are welcome, with translations if relevant. 🕸Fergus Duniho wrote on Thu, May 27, 2004 01:33 AM UTC:<P>I'm on the western side of the Atlantic.</P> <P>Having looked more closely at this page, I see that the hump part of the name comes from a piece called a Hump. Unlike the f-word, hump does have nonobscene uses, but the only one I use is one I rarely use, because I rarely talk or think about camels or hunchbacks. Except for this rare context, the word is nothing to me but a synonym for fornicate. Although I can see how you might use it as a synonym for bump, I just say bump. I have never heard of Wednesday being called hump day.</P> Jeff Rients wrote on Wed, May 26, 2004 07:48 PM UTC:Good use of links in the body of the text. I'd agree that this article could be vastly improved with some graphics. Fergus, which side of the Atlantic are you on right now? Here in the Midwest of the United States the word 'hump' has plenty of non-obscene uses. It is similar to the word 'bump'. Real (non-chess) camels have humps on their backs, as does Quasimodo. Today, Wednesday, can be referred to as 'hump day', meaning the middle of the work week. (Because 'It's all downhill from here.') 🕸Fergus Duniho wrote on Wed, May 26, 2004 03:58 PM UTC:I don't know how much slang Britain and America share in common, but over on this side of the Atlantic, hump is a synonym of the f-word. It means to have sex, particularly with reference to fornication between animals. Therefore, Humpmitregi, whatever it is supposed to mean, strikes me as an obscene name. Besides this, I regard Mitregi and Humpmitregi to both be ugly, awkward names. I previously rated this webpage as poor, because it lacks a diagram, individual descriptions of each piece, a clear presentation of the rules, and a clear separation between the two games discussed. I removed the rating because it wasn't for the game. 25 comments displayedLater ⇩Reverse Order⇧ EarlierPermalink to the exact comments currently displayed.