Check out Symmetric Chess, our featured variant for March, 2024.


[ Help | Earliest Comments | Latest Comments ]
[ List All Subjects of Discussion | Create New Subject of Discussion ]
[ List Latest Comments Only For Pages | Games | Rated Pages | Rated Games | Subjects of Discussion ]

Comments/Ratings for a Single Item

LatestLater Reverse Order Earlier
Zillions of GamesA computer program
. Game package for Windows that allows you to play nearly any abstract board game or puzzle in the world.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Mike Nelson wrote on Fri, Aug 16, 2002 02:06 PM UTC:
Michael -- I would like to see the details of your method for inflating piece values, but I don't have your e-mail address. If it is too lengthy to post here, you can email me at [email protected]

Ben Good wrote on Thu, Aug 15, 2002 11:33 PM UTC:
i have almost no experience coding zrfs, but i do look at zillions' values, and altho aronson is correct in saying it's generally difficult to tell what the right numbers should be, i have seen some cases where clearly the zillions values are wrong. the most extreme example was one they discussed on the yahoo board, where zillions considered betza's piece the ghost - which moves to any empty square on the board but never captures - worth something like 9 queens, when in fact betza considered it worth less than a pawn. the problem is that zillions gives too much value to how the piece moves w/o considering how it captures.

M. Howe wrote on Thu, Aug 15, 2002 11:16 PM UTC:Good ★★★★
I agree with Peter that deciding on piece values can be a very difficult proposition, and I certainly claim no special expertise on the matter. I usually take the word of the experts, like Betza and Schmittberger, on such matters, whenever I can. But sometimes it's clear between two pieces which one should have the greater value, and if Zillions is willing to give up strong pieces for weak ones, then getting them into the right relationship is a good thing, even if it's not a precise evaluation. For example, Zillions thinks a Leo (queen-moving cannon-taking piece) is worth as much as a queen, whereas it is clearly worth less. So in my variant that uses that piece, I boosted everything except the Leo so that the pieces have the correct value RANK if not necessarily the correct value. In other cases, of course, it is much harder to decide even what the rank is, and Ultima and its variants would be a very good example of such a situation.

Peter Aronson wrote on Thu, Aug 15, 2002 09:28 PM UTC:
I will note that figuring out what pieces are worth in a variant in the first place is often a thornier issue than trying to manipulate Zillions into having the values you want. That's why I have never attempted to tune the values in Interweave or Rococo.

M. Howe wrote on Thu, Aug 15, 2002 08:46 PM UTC:Good ★★★★
Yes, I've noticed that piece ratings are often a problem with Zillions. After a discussion on this topic with Peter Aronson and Jeff Mallett I have started forcing piece values for the variants I'm working on (one should be ready soon; the other, with lots of very unorthodox pieces needs more testing and will take a few weeks). Basically, you can artifically inflate the values of any piece you want. And therefore, if a pawn is overvalued by a certain percentage, you can inflate the values of all other pieces by the same percentage. Well, you can come close, anyway -- you don't have absolutel fine control using this workaround. I've got to get back to a home project I'm working on now, so I can't give all the details of how I'm doing this here, but if anyone is interested they can email me and I'll spell it all out -- it's pretty easy stuff, actually.

Mike Nelson wrote on Thu, Aug 15, 2002 07:42 PM UTC:
One area where improvement is needed: Zillions overvalues choice of pawn promotion. Clearly a FIDE pawn is worth more than a pawn which can only promote to Queen--but equally clearly the difference is small. Zillions rates a pawn at around 1850 in FIDE chess or in Chess with Different Armies when both players are using the same army (in either case a pawn would have four promotion choices). But in CWDA with each player using a different army, Zillions rates the pawn at around 2500. This can only be due to having eight promotion options intstead of four. Clearly, a pawn with eight possible promotions in more valuable than a pawn with four, but equally clearly the difference is nowhere near the 35% that Zillions thinks.

Joseph DiMuro wrote on Tue, Jul 2, 2002 03:38 PM UTC:
You mean it was on the website the whole time and I didn't see it?
Aarrgh!!! :-) Oh well.

Thanks for the help!

Doug Chatham wrote on Mon, Jul 1, 2002 10:40 PM UTC:
Joseph, <p> Yes, according to <a href='http://www.zillions-of-games.com/demo/order.html'>http://www.zillions-of-games.com/demo/order.html</a> the unlock key is sent by email. That is how I got my unlock key and apparently that is still how they do it.

Joseph DiMuro wrote on Mon, Jul 1, 2002 09:35 PM UTC:
I have a Visa debit card in one hand and a mouse in the other. I'm all set to (finally) purchase an unlock code for Zillions of Games. But before I do, I was wondering; the unlock code is sent by e-mail, right? I ask because I'm switching apartments in a month and a half, and anything they mail me afterwards might be returned to sender. (I'm serious about this; that's the way things work here at USC. I just have to live with it...)

9 comments displayed

LatestLater Reverse Order Earlier

Permalink to the exact comments currently displayed.